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I wrote a while back about a shul I davened at in Brooklyn, and the kiddush club that existed there. I followed up a year ago that I was by my parents for the 2nd days of Pesach, and what went on in the shul. That thread is here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kiddush-clubs-1
Well, I was by my parents again for the 2nd days of Pesach, and my father wanted to daven there a few times. He did cut down on going to that shul, but he does still go there sometimes.
The talking in this shul is completely out of control. For the entire pesukei d’zimrah, you can’t hear yourself davening at all! People are just talking non-stop. Even worse, the Rav is talking right along with them! He stopped shortly before Nishmas and went back to davening, but said nothing to the others to try and quiet them.
During chazaras hashatz and krias haTorah, you can’t hear anything over the noise.
At Shacharis on Acharon shel Pesach, someone asked me where I had davened the day before. I told him where, and he replied, “You survived? That’s the party shul! It was made by a bunch of people with no respect for God, who wanted a place to socialize without their wives.”
During Mincha later that day (which we went back to the party shul), immediately after kedushah, one guy (who is the ringleader of all the meshugas going on there) was right behind me, and he started singing and dancing the Israeli tune of Hallelukah (from the 1979 Eurovision contest), out loud during davening. I asked him to stop. His response was, “You have a problem? You know what? Get the $%^& out of my shul!”
I asked my father why he insists on going there. I asked that when I visit, can we please go somewhere else? He said he doesn’t want to upset the Rav. I told him the Rav should be upset about the lack of respect in his shul, not at the people leaving because of it!
I bought a kibbud for my brother on the 7th day, and I need to mail a check out. I’m debating writing a letter to the Rav, to tell him about the reputation his shul has, and to beg him to do something. Do you think there’s a point?
No. you think the Rav is unaware of the situation? you do not have to daven there just because your father does I think no good can come from the letter.
I wouldn’t mention the reputation.
If you say something, maybe it should be in person.
Interestingly, I read a story over Pesach regarding this topic, where someone’s son had a miraculous recovery after he undertook to stop talking during davening. (The father’s name is listed at the end, and it was supposedly heard first-hand).
The article was in Yiddish in Dee Tzieitung/News Report, on page 20 of the Yiddishe Tzeit/Torah section – in their Pesach issue. It’s reprinted (and perhaps translated from Hebrew) from what they refer to as ????? ????? ??? ????? (I’ve never seen it, but perhaps you can figure it out) and titled ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????????.
I thought you might consider sending the Rabbi a copy of the article or something similar instead of getting too “in your face” regarding his Shul. And if you want to take it a step further, you can suggest/ request that a “no talking” campaign be made in his Shul beZchus a Refuah for someone known to the Mespallelim. Just make sure to write respectfully without mentioning specifics, and maybe even increase your check…
Just my two cents.
It’s nice that you care and want to do something positive to hopefully effect change.
Hatzlacha!
Honestly, if I was in your situation I probably would say/write something. But will it actually help? Probably not.
But then again, writing to the Rov definitely has more of a chance of it rectifying the situation than writing on the CR does (and it’s more therepurtic too;).
That place sounds more like a place of Avodah Zara. They say they come to daven to Hashem, but they clearly have no intention of serving Hashem. Rather they serve themselves and have Hashem as their excuse. It’s like ovdei A”Z who create their own deity to tell them what they want to hear and do.
With such an arrogant response of “get … out of my shul”, it seems that the ringleader is calling the shots and the rabbi is a puppet.
We agree here that talking in shul is improper and should not take place. Indeed , the fellow who profanely (?) orders someone out of the “party shul” is high on the arrogant scale. Only somewhat lower on this scale are the judges here who have determined that these congregants are ovdei avodah zarah and have no desire to serve Hashem. Let Hashem make his own judgement.
I am in favor of writing to the Rabbi, and you need not daven there anymore.
Is the place the Rav’s shul or is he just an employee.
If he is just an employee of the Shul’s board, he might actually be a bit powerless and the person who was rude to you might actually be a macher who is more powerful than the Rabbi. and he is actually quite powerless
If the shul is the Rav’s shul then you should write the letter
Yes, it’s a very tough choice of what one can effectively do.
In my limited experience, even a “respectfully” written note of advice or criticism by non-members to a pulpit rav (yes, I know I’m generalizing here) will rarely lead to change.
As some – including the original poster – have already noted, the rav is likely aware of the problem and either hasn’t succeeded in changing things or doesn’t consider it his top priority.
In an meager attempt to be “dan le’kav zchus” for that rav, regarding priorities, I suggest that it’s possible that the congregants have even more serious observance issues, r”l, that the rav feels need to be addressed before he weighs in on decorum.
If you don’t like the davening in a certain shul, don’t daven there, simple as that. The real issue is the fact that you father feels he will be insulting the rav if he doesn’t daven there. If the rav really understands what’s going on there, he certainly shouldn’t be makpid about people davening there. That’s just being irresponsible as a rav. (I’m not suggesting that the rav would actually be makpid, I’m saying it’s wrong for someone to think that he would be.) Maybe you/someone should talk to the rav about that.
If the guy is macher, there isnt much the Rabbi can really do about it. Unfortunatly money talks LOUDLY
I agree with Meno. Don’t daven there.
I think you can speak to the rav, but go into the conversation with an open mind about his reasoning, and understand that he may not be able to share it with you.
If this minyan were a youth minyan for at risk kids, we would all look at this very differently. Well, maybe the rav looks at it as a minyan for at risk adults.
If you think about it, for the most part, someone makpid on davening wouldn’t daven there (I’m sure DaMoshe’s father does care about davening, which is why I said “for the most part”).
So who’s attracted to such a shul? People who are lax in at least one area of avodas Hashem, and likely in more. If every shul would not tolerate the talkers, the talkers would not have a shul to go to. The rav’s cheshbon might be that they’re better off in his shul talking, where he can perhaps have a positive influence on them in other areas, than on the streets, or forming their own minyan with no guidance whatsoever.
Da Moshe -“I wrote a while back about a shul I davened at in Brooklyn”
I know of a Shul in Flatbush – that the Rov kicked out most of the people who Davened there, about 15 – 20 years ago. They were talkers!
Most Shuls won’t do that because they need the Mispallim’s money!
The place is more or less empty, but the Rov is independent wealthy.
I think you should ask your own shayla, to your own Rebbe. On the one hand you have to listen to your father, on the other hand, you dont feel you can properly daven there. Let him pasken about where to daven, how to approach your father about it and whether or not you should approach the Rav of the shul, and if you should, how.
DY -“The rav’s cheshbon might be that they’re better off in his shul talking, where he can perhxos have a positive influence on them in other areas, than on the streets, or forming their own minyan with no guidance whatsoever.”
Most Krumme Cheshbon I’ve ever heard!
Would you say the same thing if it was a minyan for teens at risk?
“Most Krumme Cheshbon I’ve ever heard!”
Why is that any different from making a school for children have behavior problems and don’t know how to learn?
Granted these are adults, but adults have problems too.
On the contrary, Health, I think that in many cases, a Cheshbon like DY’s is Glatt and Yashar.
I know a Rav who took a position as Rabbi of a Shul, where he gets little to no pay, for just such a Cheshbon. He has, over the years, effected tremendous growth in areas such as substance abuse and chillul Shabbos d’Oraysa, as well as saving a marriage or two along the way. All of this would have been impossible if he would have been Makpid about talking during Davening.
Was his Cheshbon “Krum”?
It is easy to tell someone not to daven somewhere. But it is also impractical. I cannot daven elsewhere, nor should I have to leave the shul in which I have davened for nearly 40 years, because some young punk with no derech eretz thinks it is his prerogative and entitlement to discuss the baseball scores, his business, loshon hara, or stupid jokes, within my hearing as I am attempting to daven with kavana. These inconsiderate louts talk in loud and raucous voices, directly outside the downstairs Ezras Nashim, in the vestibule right behind the area in which I sit.
I have gently made them aware that their voices carry inside, “I am sure that you are unaware, but we actually can hear your conversation inside the main Shul. Would you mind very much taking it into the main hall?” is what I usually say. What I want to say is, “You are a bunch of disrespectful laytzanim! Take your stupid and absolutely worthless conversation, and find another Shul where you can bother people who unlike you, actually came to daven. That is, if you can FIND another shul that will tolerate your boorish behavior!” But those of you who know me for many years on this forum, also know, it is not my style to talk to anyone like that. So I dont. Not even when their stupid, meaningless conversation interfered with me on Pesach as I was trying to say Yizkor properly, which clearly B”H none of THEM as yet have to do, and for which they should be thankful to Hashem.
I cannot daven elsewhere. My Rov is a wonderful person, and we are otherwise happy where we are. I cannot easily walk to another shul locally, and the one which is next door has a lot of stairs to get up to the women’s section. I need to daven where I am. And I also need to daven without feeling the anger that is aroused in me when these thoughtless fools carry on. OK, rant over, now. WHEW! I feel better…
For some people, shul is a place to connect with their friends and neighbors as much as a place to daven. A smile, wave, or a whispered greeting should be enough.
If space allows, you may try to spread the word that you are trying to establish a silent section for those who want to better focus on the tefillah.
btw, this is the reason that I chose a shul where the women have a balcony. The space near the mechitza tends to attract the big talkers.
Health:
DY -“The rav’s cheshbon might be that they’re better off in his shul talking, where he can perhxos have a positive influence on them in other areas, than on the streets, or forming their own minyan with no guidance whatsoever.”
Most Krumme Cheshbon I’ve ever heard!
I envy your sheltered life 😉
But seriously, take a chill pill… every sentence you write doesn’t have to contain an insult and end with an exclamation mark in order for you to get your point across.
Catch yourself -“Was his Cheshbon “Krum”?”
No, but DY case is a Krumme Cheshbon! Better to close down the so-called Shul, than leave it the way it is.
This is true in many walks of Frum life. I can’t be more specific because of LH, among other reasons!
Health, there is a counter argument, equally as rigorously logical as all YOUR arguments, and based solely on the basis from which YOU argue. It also cannot be refuted.
Here it is: “!”
Feivel -“also cannot be refuted. Here it is: “!””
What is the reason you left eye medicine & became an English teacher?
Ya’see – I used “an” instead of “a”!!!!!!!!
“He has, over the years, effected tremendous growth in areas such as substance abuse and chillul Shabbos d’Oraysa”
Is growth in substance abuse and chillul shabbos a good thing? surely there is a better way to construct a sentence to mean what you want it to.
Ask Feivel. He just became an English teacher.
@ apushatayid – Agreed. I realized too late that that particular sentence was very poorly written. Thanks for the correction.
My shule is one of the few that has ZERO talking. The two other shules I sometimes visit has issues with talking but they recently put up many signs advising on that. It’s great to see.
Anyone who goes to a rampant talking shule is a complete fool. Ksil. The tefilla does not ascend in a place like that. There is no bracha.
Now! If only I could stop the meangless chatter inside the mikvah!
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