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If you support the death penalty for Leiby’s murderer sign in this post. Lets lobby for justice!
Death and dismemberment.
Not necessarily in that order.
Does the state of NY still have the death penalty?
What is the Halacha viz a secular death penalty for a “Jew” who is a savage, brutal vicious child murderer and facts are not in doubt?
No one in NY was charged whith the death penalty since it became law in 1995.
He would be chayav missa al pi halacha, that is for sure.
i am b’shita against the death panalty…but in this case id be willing to make an exception.
Give them to us.
I am heartbroken at this tragic, tragic outcome for this young neshama. His poor family.
No one in NY was charged whith the death penalty since it became law in 1995.
Incorrect. There were several people on New York’s Death Row (meaning that they were convicted and sentenced to death) when the statute was declare unconstitutional. All people on Death Row have since been re-sentenced.
No one, however, has been executed since the law was enacted.
The Wolf
Instead of deciding what should be done with the animal who did this, maybe we should decide what we should be doing with ourselves, who may have caused this. If we were better people, likely we would not have had to endure this gezaira.
Bombmaniac, Torah mandates death penalty in numerous cases. So what do you mean that you are be’shita against the death penalty?
“Does the state of NY still have the death penalty?”
No. The New York Court of Appeals ruled that the jury instructions required by New York’s Death Penalty statute were unconstitutional. Specifically, the law required a jury to unanimously choose either death or life without parole in a capital case — and if the jury was not unanimous, there would be an automatic sentence of life with the possibility of parole after 20 years. This bizzarre rule meant that if a jury was evenly divided between death and life without parole, a defendent would get a more lenient sentence than either possibility! The court overturned the statute on the basis of due process provisions of the New York State Constitution and is therefore unappealable. The legislature could modify the instructions by statute, but it has not chosen to do so.
And there is a serious halachic issue with the death penalty as it is administered in the United States, as the gemara in Sanhedrin 57a requires eyewitness testimony even in a Noachide court. Rambam brings this down as halachah in Hilchot Melachim 9:14. However, in the United States you can convict and give any penalty, including death, based on circumstantial evidence. I’ve had multiple rabbis tell me that because of issues like this, Jews should not serve on juries in capital cases in the United States.
Absolutely non of our taxpayer money to go for even a minute to keep this monster alive.
Death is too good for the troglodyte cretin who did this.
The guy is frum?????? I am shaking. I cant live anymore like this. and another boy is missing now? what does Hashem want from me?!!?!?! Its raining here- I feel like Hashem is crying with me!
He would be Chayav Missah. However in the time of the Sanhedrin, if the vote was unanimous with regard to his guilt, I dont think hew ould have been killed.
I stand to be corrected but I think if all the Sanhedrin members thik he is guilty and one is not sure, he gets off. Can someone please clarrify?
I wonder what poor Leiby’s family wants.
What a horror.
Is anyone else getting the creepy feeling that this monster set this up? Why did Leiby beg his parents to let him walk home? Why did he walk to 18th Avenue and NOT down 13th Ave? Any BP kid knows all about 13th Ave. and if his parents didn’t think he can maneuver his way to the meeting point they wouldn’t have let. Why would he head to 18th Ave when all he had to do was turn the corner at 44th and 13th but instead crossed the avenue and kept going crossing one avenue after the other. Then it looks like he is waiting on the corner almost pacing waiting to meet up with this guy. Then talks to him for a minute and then follows him to the car.
The whole thing looks suspicious and like it was set up. I have this really creepy feeling that Leiby was molested by this creep and that he was forced to walk to meet up with him nebech.
Please, please take this issue seriously. Talk to your kids about protecting themselves and telling you everything and not keeping secrets from you. Speak to the police if your kids tell you anything that is suspicious to you.
Uri in Jerusalem:
Instead of pointing fingers and accusing ‘us’ of causing this, why dont you use your energy to be dan lecuff zechus Am Yisroel for all the hard work and effort they did in either their tefilos or physcially doing what they could to locate this boy!,,,,?????
Get a life boy!
He would be Chayav Missah. However in the time of the Sanhedrin, if the vote was unanimous with regard to his guilt, I dont think hew ould have been killed.
That is correct. All the judges voting for conviction results in an acquittal.
but I think if all the Sanhedrin members thik he is guilty and one is not sure, he gets off.
If the vote is 22-0 for conviction (with one non-vote), then two additional judges are added to the court and (after possible further deliberation) another vote is taken. Once you have a result with 23 voting members, then the result is binding.
The Wolf (who is thisclose to finally finishing Sanhedrin)
This guy is clearly insane. I doubt he will get a death penalty. The guy showed up to work and acted as if nothing happened. I don’t even think he would be chayiv meesah al pi halacha as he is insane.
I just saw a picture of this animal on another website lethal injection is too good for him
Broker- Correct. If Everyone on the beis din votes to convict, then he is let off the hook.
Broker
When that is the case, it is then assumed that the accused did not receive an adequate defense.
L’havdil.
Sadly, this is not the time of the Sanhedrin.
L”havdil.
In the current situation the accused seems has implicated himself and the details – which we all know won’t be posted here but by now are becoming common knowledge and I have to believe that everyone who is here and uses the Internet to come here has to get at least glancing incidental exposure from the saturated secular media – leave rapidly-disappearing room for any doubt or defense.
Broker,
yes that is the Halacha.
ok so listen to this – a couple of years ago his sister mysteriously
died and they never discovered how!!!!!!!
Can someon, please explain the logic in why a suspected murderer would be free of conviction if the ENTIRE beis din has no doubt that he was guilty?
Is it because there would be suspicion with regard to the fact that NO ONE has a doubt?
Is anyone else getting the creepy feeling that this monster set this up?
According to the just-concluded press conference from the police, it was not set up. It was just happenstance that they met.
Any BP kid knows all about 13th Ave.
It’s not out of the realm of possibility that a kid, walking alone for the first time, made a wrong turn and/or was not paying attention to where he was going until he was lost.
I doubt he will get a death penalty.
He absolutely will NOT get the death penalty because New York does not have a functioning death penalty law in place.
The Wolf
Hopefully, prison justice will take care of him as it did with Jeffrey Dahmer.
Sadly, even if someone had reported him as being “suspicious”, civil rights laws would have kept him from being forced into treatment unless he had clearly been arrested for a crime.
And it is a tribute to our community that we cared as we did. Dahmer got away with what he did again and again because the people he murdered did not have anyone other than family (if that) who were concerned enough to look for them. Of course one murder is one too many, as is one abuse case, but at least this creep will never do anything again.
The question is whether it will help the community identify and deal with the rest of the sociopaths and criminally insane in our midst.
600 Kilo Bear,
It’s the other way around… If we would only be more warm to the “freaks” they would learn to be more emotional. People can only become animals when they are away from society not when they are well integrated in it.
From a purely legal perspective in Halacha, one cannot be convicted in a criminal matter based on his own implication. Moreover, the standard death penalty is never carried out when there aren’t two witnesses who warned the accused immediately prior to the act. However, if the court is convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that the accused did indeed murder the victim and is a menace to society, there is a legal means of ‘doing away’ with him without carrying out the standard death penalty.
i dont know how frum the guy was but even so…wow
Can someon, please explain the logic in why a suspected murderer would be free of conviction if the ENTIRE beis din has no doubt that he was guilty?
It should be pointed out that this halacha applies to all capital cases, not just murder.
I won’t claim to fully understand the reasoning behind it, but I am certain that that IS the din.
The Wolf
honolulu: Where did you see that about his sister?
Now I’m really getting the creeps even more than before…
(I used to make jokes about guys who get suggested to me- asking how many people they’ve murdered and buried under the patio… that line of joke is getting less and less funny…)
Copied from Ohr Somayach Ask the Rabbi http://ohr.edu/ask/ask131.htm
Question: You are one of the judges in a Jewish court in a capital case. It is your turn to state your opinion. If you say, “I find the defendant innocent,” then the defendant receives the death penalty. But if you say, “I find the defendant guilty,” he goes ‘scot-free.’ What is the case?
Answer: You are the last judge to vote, where all the other judges have already said ‘guilty.’
According to Torah law, convicting someone of a capital crime requires a Sanhedrin of 23 judges. After hearing testimony from eye-witnesses, the judges vote. If at least thirteen of the judges vote ‘guilty’ the defendant is executed.
There is a surprising exception to this, however if ALL the judges vote guilty, then the defendant is acquitted.
Here’s why:
There are two ways to look at everything. There’s no situation in this world without some merit or positive side. If not one judge was able to see the good side and declare the defendant innocent, something’s wrong. The positive side of the case must have been missing during the presentation of the evidence. Therefore, he is acquitted.
So sad. We suffer various kinds of tradegies every summer.
“Sadly, this is not the time of the Sanhedrin.”
And even if it were; no eidim and no hasra, he gets off.
While I am horrified by what happened, we have to look clearly, without our emotions clouding things.
This guy is a Jew. A sick one, but still a Jew. While a secular court is halachicly allowed to impose a death penalty, I don’t know how it applies when the criminal is a Jew. I believe halacha should take precedence.
Even if this man met all the requirements to be sentenced to death by a beis din (which our botei dinim now can’t do), remember that a beis din which carried out such a sentence more than once in 7 (or 70) years was considered bloodthirsty. Let’s not be bloodthirsty and call for his death.
New York is one of 14 states without a functioning death penalty law. Interestingly, of the states with the 14 lowest homicide rates, ten have no death penalty, and one of the ones that does, New Hampshire, hasn’t executed anyone since 1939 (although it does have one person currently on death row). Three of the other four states with no death penalty have homicide rates lower than the national average (the exception is Michigan).
Furthermore there is not way to give Leiby’s killer a death penalty without amending the United States and New York Constitutions to permit a person to be punished at a level that was not permissible at the time of the commission of the offense — something known as an ex post facto law. This is so important that the original Constitution, prior to the Bill of Rights and the 14th Amendment, restricted the States from doing this!
“No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.”
There really isn’t any point in continuing the conversation here.
TO 600 KILO, YUNGERMAN….
as tragic as this horrible crime is – lets not forget there must be Eidim & Hasroa in order for him to be found guilty.
so sanhedrin would not arrive to such a unanonumus decision without these qualifications.
tobg, you don’t understand what we are dealing with here. You are being fed this kind of nonsense from psychological manuals that are written by the permissive leftists who create the conditions that allow the Arons and the Dahmers to walk the streets.
We are dealing with defects in brain chemistry, not normal people who just aren’t friendly. If the rav of wherever he was from had said good morning to Hitler yemach shmoi when he was growing up, there still would have been a churban. If the Fogels HYD had said hello every morning to their murderers, they’d still be dead. These human animals cannot be socialized. They’re born wired wrong. In some cases it is clear what happened – many street thugs were born to mothers who used drugs during pregnancy.
Still, we had fools in Crown Heights back when I lived there saying that if we were only nicer to our local thieves, they’d stop stealing. Yeah, right. Williamsburgh has hardly any crime because they don’t tolerate it – their shomrim don’t fear the law because of their political connections and they don’t mind leaving a miscreant in critical condition as a warning to the next one who tries.
What you are saying is the same as saying that if Solomon D-ek’s parents had given him more as a kid, he would not have grown up to be a thief and a moiser. Solomon D-ek lacked for nothing as a child; he has very wealthy uncles who knew he wanted to go into business and they supported both him and his father who is a rav very well.
And the king of the sociopaths, Osama bin Laden yemach shmo, had everything in this world and did what he did.
These people are born reshoim. Until Moshiach comes, we will not understand why people are born this way. But for now, we have to keep them far, far away from ourselves and our children.
They found part of the boy in his house.
And he was found on a survelieance video talking to the boy…
The evidence and not circumstancial.
I belive in the time of the Sanhadrein if there was someone guilty of murder , but they could not execute him for some reason they force fed him until he died
Feif Un says;
Lastly, I urge you all to remember the case of Martin Grossman, a year and a half ago. This was also a murderer, who executed a police officer. At the time, because Martin was Jewish, everyone was calling for his life to be spared. Why is this guy any different?
This guy is different because he killed an innocent defensless child who was in no way a threat to him
With GROSSMAN, as guilty as he was, one may argue that he was fightiong off a police officer in self defense….Nothing to do with the victim being a non Jew versus a Jew
MORZET: Though sanhedrin cannot use Capital Punishment in a case like this, they can kill him via indirect means like starving him to death. This is a famous question if we had Sanhedrin these days and you have video cameras, and DNA proof the man killed someone, the suspect can not receive Arba Mesas since there was no warning. However, Bais Din can kill him via other means, as mentioned above.
I think the confession and the camera would be accepted even by the Sanhedrin if we had one today.
Either way, its not for us to judge or decide which punishment this sick person needs…he WILL pay- in this world- and in the next; hell isn’t big enough for a person who does sucha a horrendous act!!!
I suggest that mida k’neged mida, we dismember him, while using all means necessary to keep him alive during the slow process.
aries: I was thinking the same thing from early this morning (He really looks like he’s waiting for him on the corner, and the fact that he begged his parents just on this particular day) But it seems the police and everyone else thinks/knows otherwise.
Let’s not forget another tragedy. Aron’s parents and family have just had their worst nightmare actualized. You don’t wake up one day and become a child killer. They must have been suffering with him for most of his 35 years.
They did everything right; Aron went to yeshiva, to camp, had a bar mitzvah celebration with his Rav in attendance, everyone danced at his chasuna, and nebech he is a very very sick person and probably always was. So why was he born with this deranged brain; ask the third partner. And beware, because there are more around.
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