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One proposal they are considering is to switch to year round Daylight Savings Time nationally. This would be quite a nuisance for frum Yidden since the earliest time for putting on tefillin would be too late for those who have to commute to work, though it would make it easier getting home on Friday night. A year round switch to standard time would be less of a nuisance, but it seems when goyim talk about ending the “spring forward, fall back” what the talking about is year-round DST.
The change is merely psychological.
How is tefillah the ikkar and shabbos is just something you mention as a tiny side benefit? Shabbos is way bigger deal and this would be MASSIVELY beneficial to people working in the professional world in areas where shabbos starts as early as 4 and in some places even earlier.
People feel like Shabbos isn’t “as much of a problem” just because it’s the devil they know. It’s the problem they’ve already sorted out, but they’ll sort out the davening problem too. The difference is, if stuff goes awry, they miss zman hatefillah b’ones or b’shogeg, whereas now if stuff goes awry they’re mechallel shabbos.
Currently where I live netz would be at 8:05, not a big problem since you have to be at שמונה עשרה by then
There are health problems associated with the clock changes
A good point about shabbos. But does it really matter anymore? Half of the country is not working, and the other half is working remotely. In either case, you can daven whenever you want
A few points
1) “One proposal they are considering is to switch to year round Daylight Savings”
Ive been trying to find exactly what their proposing, while saw they agreed with social media posts to stop changing clocks, Couldn’t find any mention of which change they would stop . did you see any clar discussiion? ( To be fair I doubt they know what they want)2) “but it seems when goyim talk about ending the “spring forward, fall back” what the talking about is year-round DST.”
That is generally true, but the medical organizations prefer year round Standard time which is more in tune with our circadian rhythm. People of course liek the later sunsets but in the 70’s when there was year round DST it became wildly unpopular quickly.
while annoying there is a reason why we have this setup . People dont have such long memories3) “The change is merely psychological.”
this is a bizzare claim .
It isnt true halachicly socially, physiologically. I’m not sure what it means
and of course it is against the Gedolim see below4) “People feel like Shabbos isn’t “as much of a problem” just because it’s the devil they know.”
Yes. Of course.
Obviously if there is year round DST we will figure it out. But it will be challenging . In Detroit sunrise will be close to 9 AM (though they will probably revert to Central time where they belong)
also FWIW R’ Moshe rejects this argument5) see “Agudath Israel Helps Stop Permanent “Daylight Saving” Bill, Exceedingly Disruptive to Orthodox Jewish Life”
Where the Agudah describes their advocacy on this issue and posts a Teshuva from R” Moshe encoruaging fighting against Year round DST
>> “The change is merely psychological.”
> this is a bizzare claim .It is not. You are free to run your own business at any time you want. Groups of people agree to start schools/businesses/government offices at certain time. Currently, so many people have flexible times, it will not matter for a lot of people. Just talk to your boss, if you have one, and suggest you’ll be coming one hour earlier during winter.
Elon Musk is not an elected official so he has limited ability to make proposals that will get done.
It isn’t only frum people who don’t want it getting light at 9:00 in the winter. It is also a major nuisance for dairy farmers because if their cows wake up so late in the day it means they will have difficulty getting the milk to the market that day. non diary framers don’t like it either because the dew doesn’t defrost until later in the day making them wait around later in the day to start work (but they aren’t doing that much work in the winter to put a major fuss)
If standard time becomes year round it will be a major problem for Bochurim summer bein hazaminim when the second zman krias shma will get as early as 8;00. Baale Batim aren’t going to like 7:30 Shabbos Shachris either
“Where the Agudah describes their advocacy on this issue and posts a Teshuva from R” Moshe encoruaging fighting against Year round DST”
With all due respect, I’d give more weight to the people who actually work 9-5’ers rather than Rabbis whose jobs intrinsically adjust for the halachah and couldn’t care less if Shabbos started at 1 PM.“also FWIW R’ Moshe rejects this argument”
What argument? That Shabbos matters more than zman hatefilla? Zero chance.“this is a bizzare claim .”
Why? The Sun will still rise and set as it does. We will just refer to it by a different number on a clock. Nothing is changing astronomically; it’s purely mental as he said.“It is not. You are free to run your own business at any time you want”
This is silly
1) many people aren’t in charge of their own hours
2) even those that are are at the whims of the public“With all due respect, I’d give more weigh…”
Thats fair, thats why I introduced that point with “FWIW…” (for what its worth)“What argument? That Shabbos matters more than zman hatefilla? Zero chance.”
Yes. read the teshuva (though he wasn’t talking about your exact concern, which seems like less of a concern than his)
Is that a real issue though among people you know ? they are mechalel shabbos Fridays in the winter? (not is it hard, have they come close etc)
“Why? The Sun will still rise and set as it does. We will just refer to it by a different number on a clock. Nothing is changing astronomically; it’s purely mental as he said.”
Because the “number on the clock” matters more than the Astronomical time
Meaning yes If all of society changed their practice and woke up at 7 instead of 6, “9-5 workday” became 10-6 schools started at 9 instead of 8 ended at 5 instead of 4 etc etc then he’d be rightbut that isnt what will happen (obviously) We (society) will keep waking up at 6 with work day being 9-5 etc etc but with difficulties with zemanim
Will we adjust? for sure It isnt the biggest deal but society is largely driven by the clock not the sun. It is bizzare to suggest otherwise
what you say “We will just refer to it by a different number on a clock. ” is what drives society while yes nothing changes astronomically (obviously) we dont fucntion astronomicallyAnd memah nafshach, if the clock doesn’t matter. S owho cares if the clock changes teice a year. Ignore it! after all “Nothing is changing astronomically” You can do it today chaneg your wtch back to DST 2 PM becomes 1 PM go to sleep. go to work tomorrow at 10 AM EST ie 9 on your clock . Tell your bos like AAQ that your coming in hour late tomoorw (he said early but presumably he menat late) problem solved.
sure it will be confusing if others refer to your 9 as 8, but it shouldn’t be confusing nothing is changing astronomically its all purely mental(dont get caught up on these exact times probably arent any real 9-5 jobs left, and I dont know what time you get up just using 6 as example)
Working people don’t NEED birchas Kohanim or any Tefillah at all.
They are Yotze with the Tzibbur, while they are at work.But we do need to keep Shabbos.
And since the Minhag among non-chassidim is to keep Shabbos from when the Sun goes under the horizon (an opinion that has NO basis in Torah or Chazal, and is actually quite laughable when seeing how Chazal argued intensely about when Bein haShmashos starts, clearly NOT as simple as when the sun goes under the horizon – the official Ashkenazi minhag has always been a later shkiyah, and even Bet Yosef, the leading sfardi posek, held that way as well. But the Sfardi minhag is to follow the first shkiyah),
And most frum people live in places when sundown is at 430 nowadays.
This is a BIG problem. And there are not many options to resolve it OTHER than abolishing standard time.THE AGUDAH, AND ASKANIM, SHOULD BE PROMOTING THE ABOLISHMENT OF STANDARD TIME.
UNTIL THEN, THEY WILL NOT RECEIVE ONE PENNY FROM ME!!ubi > many people aren’t in charge of their own hours
it is true, but there are so many people asking for a slight change in their hours at work: people who do not want to be stuck in traffic commuting downtown start 6am, parents who need to drop kids off start 9am … these days, there is real traffic only on wed-thur, the rest of the days are mostly WFH … asking to leave early on Friday used to be a big deal 30 years ago (when I worked for others), now you don’t expect an answer to your email fri to mon, unless you are talking to a workaholic.
“It is also a major nuisance for dairy farmers because if their cows wake up so late in the day …….. it will be a major problem for Bochurim summer bein hazaminim when the second zman krias shma will get as early as 8;00. Baale Batim aren’t going to like 7:30 Shabbos Shachris either….
All valid concerns to the cows and kollel yungerleit but I’m not sure even working together they have the political leverage to offset the DOGE caucus.
I don’t think cows give a hoot to DC edicts about time, although I presume they do care about agricultural subsidies.
But here is an issue coming from this thread: one reason for tefila b’tzibur is that we all take into account the needs of others, and travelers do not daven for lack of rain. Same here, you should look beyond your little inconvenience and consider what works for the whole country. Why should we care? When Yaakov meets the shepherds who don’t trust each other, he advises them that there is still time to go feed sheep more grass (and increase meat production).
“And memah nafshach, if the clock doesn’t matter. S owho cares if the clock changes teice a year. Ignore it!”
I generally agree with this stance aside from the fact that I think Shabbos starting later would be beneficial. The other effects of the time change don’t bother me nearly as much as they seem to other people and I think a lot of it is over-dramatization.
“Is that a real issue though among people you know ? they are mechalel shabbos Fridays in the winter? (not is it hard, have they come close etc)”
This is a bad argument, and I’m worried if this is actually Aguda’s stance. Yes, people have found ways around it or have simply been prevented from taking certain jobs. When it becomes a tefillah problem, they’ll find ways around that as well. It’s a moot point. Frum yidden aren’t going to purposely violate the halachah for their jobs, but tefillah is an easier problem to work around since it’s in the first place more meikel than Shabbos. As far as knowing personal experiences, I doubt people would advertise it, but I’m sure there are cases of people getting stuck in their commute in the winter that happen every year. There was a relatively well known story about Joe Lieberman who was otherwise shomer shabbos.
NC
“This is a bad argument,”
I guess thats where we disagree. The Agudau (hopefully) responds to its constituents . If tEarly Fridays was a big problem they would know Rabbanoim would know and deal with it. You are suggesting we allow a definite problem to avoid an issue tha t you “are sure there are cases of…” and a few anecdotal well known stories. I dont find that persuasive.
I agree though that it isnt the biggest deal and we’ll adjust ok so daven beyichidus at work put on tefilin at a bedieved time for a few months (anyway we rely on that if theres shaas hadechak etc) it isnt the biggest deal.
I was surprised to see the Teshuva from R” Moshe encouraging they fight it vigourously.
My bigger concern is that it was tried before (year round DST) and it became very unpopular in a few months with congess quickly swithing back.
Happy New year
putting aside the inaccuracies in your post regarding Shkiya
You say “And most frum people live in places when sundown is at 430 nowadays. This is a BIG problem.”Can you eloborate ? while certainly challenging, in what way is it a big problem?
The idea that shabbos is not a problem for real frummies, so let’s optimize Shahar shaharis ignores those Yidden who work high intensity jobs and get into major difficulties and those less committed who might compromise shabbos when it is really hard. Remind you, halakha cancels shofar on shabbos because of some dude potentially deciding to carry his shofar out to learn the tune.
AAQ
FWIW R’ Moshe explicitly rejects this argument. in the Teshuva referenced above
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