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One proposal they are considering is to switch to year round Daylight Savings Time nationally. This would be quite a nuisance for frum Yidden since the earliest time for putting on tefillin would be too late for those who have to commute to work, though it would make it easier getting home on Friday night. A year round switch to standard time would be less of a nuisance, but it seems when goyim talk about ending the “spring forward, fall back” what the talking about is year-round DST.
The change is merely psychological.
How is tefillah the ikkar and shabbos is just something you mention as a tiny side benefit? Shabbos is way bigger deal and this would be MASSIVELY beneficial to people working in the professional world in areas where shabbos starts as early as 4 and in some places even earlier.
People feel like Shabbos isn’t “as much of a problem” just because it’s the devil they know. It’s the problem they’ve already sorted out, but they’ll sort out the davening problem too. The difference is, if stuff goes awry, they miss zman hatefillah b’ones or b’shogeg, whereas now if stuff goes awry they’re mechallel shabbos.
Currently where I live netz would be at 8:05, not a big problem since you have to be at שמונה עשרה by then
There are health problems associated with the clock changes
A good point about shabbos. But does it really matter anymore? Half of the country is not working, and the other half is working remotely. In either case, you can daven whenever you want
A few points
1) “One proposal they are considering is to switch to year round Daylight Savings”
Ive been trying to find exactly what their proposing, while saw they agreed with social media posts to stop changing clocks, Couldn’t find any mention of which change they would stop . did you see any clar discussiion? ( To be fair I doubt they know what they want)2) “but it seems when goyim talk about ending the “spring forward, fall back” what the talking about is year-round DST.”
That is generally true, but the medical organizations prefer year round Standard time which is more in tune with our circadian rhythm. People of course liek the later sunsets but in the 70’s when there was year round DST it became wildly unpopular quickly.
while annoying there is a reason why we have this setup . People dont have such long memories3) “The change is merely psychological.”
this is a bizzare claim .
It isnt true halachicly socially, physiologically. I’m not sure what it means
and of course it is against the Gedolim see below4) “People feel like Shabbos isn’t “as much of a problem” just because it’s the devil they know.”
Yes. Of course.
Obviously if there is year round DST we will figure it out. But it will be challenging . In Detroit sunrise will be close to 9 AM (though they will probably revert to Central time where they belong)
also FWIW R’ Moshe rejects this argument5) see “Agudath Israel Helps Stop Permanent “Daylight Saving” Bill, Exceedingly Disruptive to Orthodox Jewish Life”
Where the Agudah describes their advocacy on this issue and posts a Teshuva from R” Moshe encoruaging fighting against Year round DST
>> “The change is merely psychological.”
> this is a bizzare claim .It is not. You are free to run your own business at any time you want. Groups of people agree to start schools/businesses/government offices at certain time. Currently, so many people have flexible times, it will not matter for a lot of people. Just talk to your boss, if you have one, and suggest you’ll be coming one hour earlier during winter.
Elon Musk is not an elected official so he has limited ability to make proposals that will get done.
It isn’t only frum people who don’t want it getting light at 9:00 in the winter. It is also a major nuisance for dairy farmers because if their cows wake up so late in the day it means they will have difficulty getting the milk to the market that day. non diary framers don’t like it either because the dew doesn’t defrost until later in the day making them wait around later in the day to start work (but they aren’t doing that much work in the winter to put a major fuss)
If standard time becomes year round it will be a major problem for Bochurim summer bein hazaminim when the second zman krias shma will get as early as 8;00. Baale Batim aren’t going to like 7:30 Shabbos Shachris either
“Where the Agudah describes their advocacy on this issue and posts a Teshuva from R” Moshe encoruaging fighting against Year round DST”
With all due respect, I’d give more weight to the people who actually work 9-5’ers rather than Rabbis whose jobs intrinsically adjust for the halachah and couldn’t care less if Shabbos started at 1 PM.“also FWIW R’ Moshe rejects this argument”
What argument? That Shabbos matters more than zman hatefilla? Zero chance.“this is a bizzare claim .”
Why? The Sun will still rise and set as it does. We will just refer to it by a different number on a clock. Nothing is changing astronomically; it’s purely mental as he said.“It is not. You are free to run your own business at any time you want”
This is silly
1) many people aren’t in charge of their own hours
2) even those that are are at the whims of the public“With all due respect, I’d give more weigh…”
Thats fair, thats why I introduced that point with “FWIW…” (for what its worth)“What argument? That Shabbos matters more than zman hatefilla? Zero chance.”
Yes. read the teshuva (though he wasn’t talking about your exact concern, which seems like less of a concern than his)
Is that a real issue though among people you know ? they are mechalel shabbos Fridays in the winter? (not is it hard, have they come close etc)
“Why? The Sun will still rise and set as it does. We will just refer to it by a different number on a clock. Nothing is changing astronomically; it’s purely mental as he said.”
Because the “number on the clock” matters more than the Astronomical time
Meaning yes If all of society changed their practice and woke up at 7 instead of 6, “9-5 workday” became 10-6 schools started at 9 instead of 8 ended at 5 instead of 4 etc etc then he’d be rightbut that isnt what will happen (obviously) We (society) will keep waking up at 6 with work day being 9-5 etc etc but with difficulties with zemanim
Will we adjust? for sure It isnt the biggest deal but society is largely driven by the clock not the sun. It is bizzare to suggest otherwise
what you say “We will just refer to it by a different number on a clock. ” is what drives society while yes nothing changes astronomically (obviously) we dont fucntion astronomicallyAnd memah nafshach, if the clock doesn’t matter. S owho cares if the clock changes teice a year. Ignore it! after all “Nothing is changing astronomically” You can do it today chaneg your wtch back to DST 2 PM becomes 1 PM go to sleep. go to work tomorrow at 10 AM EST ie 9 on your clock . Tell your bos like AAQ that your coming in hour late tomoorw (he said early but presumably he menat late) problem solved.
sure it will be confusing if others refer to your 9 as 8, but it shouldn’t be confusing nothing is changing astronomically its all purely mental(dont get caught up on these exact times probably arent any real 9-5 jobs left, and I dont know what time you get up just using 6 as example)
Working people don’t NEED birchas Kohanim or any Tefillah at all.
They are Yotze with the Tzibbur, while they are at work.But we do need to keep Shabbos.
And since the Minhag among non-chassidim is to keep Shabbos from when the Sun goes under the horizon (an opinion that has NO basis in Torah or Chazal, and is actually quite laughable when seeing how Chazal argued intensely about when Bein haShmashos starts, clearly NOT as simple as when the sun goes under the horizon – the official Ashkenazi minhag has always been a later shkiyah, and even Bet Yosef, the leading sfardi posek, held that way as well. But the Sfardi minhag is to follow the first shkiyah),
And most frum people live in places when sundown is at 430 nowadays.
This is a BIG problem. And there are not many options to resolve it OTHER than abolishing standard time.THE AGUDAH, AND ASKANIM, SHOULD BE PROMOTING THE ABOLISHMENT OF STANDARD TIME.
UNTIL THEN, THEY WILL NOT RECEIVE ONE PENNY FROM ME!!ubi > many people aren’t in charge of their own hours
it is true, but there are so many people asking for a slight change in their hours at work: people who do not want to be stuck in traffic commuting downtown start 6am, parents who need to drop kids off start 9am … these days, there is real traffic only on wed-thur, the rest of the days are mostly WFH … asking to leave early on Friday used to be a big deal 30 years ago (when I worked for others), now you don’t expect an answer to your email fri to mon, unless you are talking to a workaholic.
“It is also a major nuisance for dairy farmers because if their cows wake up so late in the day …….. it will be a major problem for Bochurim summer bein hazaminim when the second zman krias shma will get as early as 8;00. Baale Batim aren’t going to like 7:30 Shabbos Shachris either….
All valid concerns to the cows and kollel yungerleit but I’m not sure even working together they have the political leverage to offset the DOGE caucus.
I don’t think cows give a hoot to DC edicts about time, although I presume they do care about agricultural subsidies.
But here is an issue coming from this thread: one reason for tefila b’tzibur is that we all take into account the needs of others, and travelers do not daven for lack of rain. Same here, you should look beyond your little inconvenience and consider what works for the whole country. Why should we care? When Yaakov meets the shepherds who don’t trust each other, he advises them that there is still time to go feed sheep more grass (and increase meat production).
“And memah nafshach, if the clock doesn’t matter. S owho cares if the clock changes teice a year. Ignore it!”
I generally agree with this stance aside from the fact that I think Shabbos starting later would be beneficial. The other effects of the time change don’t bother me nearly as much as they seem to other people and I think a lot of it is over-dramatization.
“Is that a real issue though among people you know ? they are mechalel shabbos Fridays in the winter? (not is it hard, have they come close etc)”
This is a bad argument, and I’m worried if this is actually Aguda’s stance. Yes, people have found ways around it or have simply been prevented from taking certain jobs. When it becomes a tefillah problem, they’ll find ways around that as well. It’s a moot point. Frum yidden aren’t going to purposely violate the halachah for their jobs, but tefillah is an easier problem to work around since it’s in the first place more meikel than Shabbos. As far as knowing personal experiences, I doubt people would advertise it, but I’m sure there are cases of people getting stuck in their commute in the winter that happen every year. There was a relatively well known story about Joe Lieberman who was otherwise shomer shabbos.
NC
“This is a bad argument,”
I guess thats where we disagree. The Agudau (hopefully) responds to its constituents . If tEarly Fridays was a big problem they would know Rabbanoim would know and deal with it. You are suggesting we allow a definite problem to avoid an issue tha t you “are sure there are cases of…” and a few anecdotal well known stories. I dont find that persuasive.
I agree though that it isnt the biggest deal and we’ll adjust ok so daven beyichidus at work put on tefilin at a bedieved time for a few months (anyway we rely on that if theres shaas hadechak etc) it isnt the biggest deal.
I was surprised to see the Teshuva from R” Moshe encouraging they fight it vigourously.
My bigger concern is that it was tried before (year round DST) and it became very unpopular in a few months with congess quickly swithing back.
Happy New year
putting aside the inaccuracies in your post regarding Shkiya
You say “And most frum people live in places when sundown is at 430 nowadays. This is a BIG problem.”Can you eloborate ? while certainly challenging, in what way is it a big problem?
The idea that shabbos is not a problem for real frummies, so let’s optimize Shahar shaharis ignores those Yidden who work high intensity jobs and get into major difficulties and those less committed who might compromise shabbos when it is really hard. Remind you, halakha cancels shofar on shabbos because of some dude potentially deciding to carry his shofar out to learn the tune.
AAQ
FWIW R’ Moshe explicitly rejects this argument. in the Teshuva referenced above
ubiq, thanks, what is his reasoning?
Btw, as R Moshe is one of the great rabbonim who is early in addressing modern problems, we need to be careful looking at the arguments – as circumstances often change from 1950s.
AAQ
The gist of it is we arent oiver even a D’rabanan to prevent someone else’s issur. so while its true “those less committed who might compromise shabbos when it is really hard. ” that is not a reason for us to forgo Tefila Btzibur, Tefilin B’zman etc.I can hear people disagreeing, and the point regarding Shofar on Shabbos is a fair one, (though Im hesitent to expand gezeira chazal more than they did).
I am curious about a point you and other posters have made though
one poster said “And most frum people live in places when sundown is at 430 nowadays. This is a BIG problem.”” you said ” ignores those Yidden who work high intensity jobs and get into major difficulties”IT certainly is difficult. I guess I didnt realize its such a pressing problem
“putting aside the inaccuracies in your post regarding Shkiya”
He’s actually correct by the way. We’ve only been choshesh for shkiah rishona for about 100 years, maybe less. It’s a very recent thing. Nobody is Europe went like shitas hagaonim; even the Mishnah Berurah admits this. In any case, it’s not nogeia to this discussion; I just wasn’t sure why you claimed he was being inaccurate. I know it’s kind of “forbidden knowledge” in the Orthodox world that we didn’t hold this way until recently, but it would be misleading to claim otherwise. The mainstream minhag is to just never talk about it, but actively denying it seems dishonest.“He’s actually correct by the way.”
Partly
1) It isnt Chazal it is a later machlokes as you correctly point out as to what chazal meant by “skiya” what we call sunset or something later (or earlier according to the Yereim) .
Most do hold like Rabbinu Tam that shekiyah is not at sunset, however Rabbienu Tam isnt generally reffered to as “chazal”
nor ormost of the opinions who hold like R”T
however this brings me to the bigger inaccuracy:2)
It is a stretch to say ” to keep Shabbos from when the Sun goes under the horizon (an opinion that has NO basis in Torah or Chazal, ” Again it is a machlokes as to What Chazal held . so chazal certainly MAY have held shekiya is at sunset (or earlier) . and Many (though not most) DO pasken like the Geonim that shkiyah is sunset Most notably perhaps the Gra as well as the Baal Hatanya (in his sidur which was written after his shulchan Aruch, and rishonim incluidng the Ramabm and Rabbinu chananel held this was as well . To say “NO basis is Torah ” [sic] is at best inaccurate if not flat out wrong“In any case, it’s not nogeia to this discussion”
agree completely. particulary since if anything it undermines his point .Though it doesnt matter, if it is “BIG problem” then it is a big problem regardless of exactly when shabbos starts . I was under the impression like you said “the devil they know. It’s the problem they’ve already sorted out,” I was surprised to hear otherwise.
“It isnt Chazal it is a later machlokes”
Fair enough. He should have said a machlokes rishonim.“To say “NO basis is Torah ” [sic] is at best inaccurate if not flat out wrong”
True also. He should have said it had no basis in the mesora, not “no basis in Torah.”“agree completely. particulary since if anything it undermines his point .”
It’s not clear exactly what his point was, but he might have been citing this as an example of powerful Rabbonim putting machmirus over what’s practical for baal habatim. To change the ~1000 year old practice in order to be choshesh for shitas hageonim was no skin off their backs, but starting Shabbos ~45 minutes earlier would be a lot more noticeable for working people. The parallel to this situation seems relatively clear.To put it in perspective, if we did year-round daylight savings AND still did shitas R”T, Shabbos would never start before 6PM in NYC. People working 9-5’ers would not even have to leave early on Fridays (depending on commutes).
ubi> we arent oiver even a D’rabanan to prevent someone else’s issur.
thanks for explaining the teshuva. I agree that my argument about shofar is an agadta, we can’t just apply it to any issur.
I am still not sure why this is our issur d’rabonan v. someone else’s aveira. We are talking about challenges, not violation. So, you will have difficulty going to the minyan, so take time off your work and go to the minyan. Of course, this means your loss v/ someone else’s loss, and you are not obligated to do that, although maybe it would be a good humra. I can maybe argue that you are better learned & equipped to absorbe the loss, while a less observant person is not.
Or you can argue that minyan is every day, so your loss is 5x larger, or it is not practical to get accommoded at work every day.
It may be also a difference that during R Moshe’s time there was a feeling that those who are fully observant are an endangered specie, so they have to be protected and nurtured. As R Nosson Sherman’s father was saying to his (elderly) shiur goers during snowstorms – continue coming, who knows if there will be a shiur after you …
ubi > I guess I didnt realize its such a pressing problem
It is a thing about people not understanding others …
Just in another thread, someone presumed that non-observant people are only interested in a Tanach to mock it …
I once had a hevrusa from a somewhat shletered upbringing. After we went thru a number of dafim, I once told him a story how somewhat reacted to me being a Jew in some remote environment, to what he reacted – oh, you wear kippah to work!? He was taught in his yeshiva that people who go outside have to hide … this kept him in, and he did not revisit that as an adult
“It is a thing about people not understanding others …”
I’m not sure what you mean
thats my question.Tell me….. I’m all ears.
to be clear yes its annoying. but I havent heard any talk about trying to get it changed. And the Agudah lobbied for the opposite .It seems they arent aware either. sure it is possible they are so out of touch, and/or that as NC understood another poster “but he might have been citing this as an example of powerful Rabbonim putting machmirus over what’s practical for baal habatim. ” is that the case?
“I am still not sure why this is our issur d’rabonan v. someone else’s aveira.”
I agree completely with you here, but I can tell you why he thought that based on your previous posts. You made mention of “people who are less committed,” seemingly suggesting that we should be choshesh for people who would be willing to be machellel shabbos b’meizid. Reb Moshe consistently was against this line to reasoning with regards to building eruvin, so it makes sense that it would not apply here either.“Just in another thread, someone presumed that non-observant people are only interested in a Tanach to mock it …”
This is off-topic, but this is not actually what I said. I said they were either interested in it as a academic pursuit, or to mock it; in either case they would want an accurate translation. What other interest would a secular person have in it? If they are interested in it for religious reasons, then we aren’t talking about secular people anymore.“It is a thing about people not understanding others …”
More so I would say it’s a problem with adopting a collectivist approach. Meaning, if I personally benefit from year-round DST, then that’s the position I should support, but the collectivist approach that Agudah seems to be taking would say that I should be mevatel my own needs because some other guy somewhere might have trouble making it to minyan.“The gist of it is we arent oiver even a D’rabanan to prevent someone else’s issur.”
That’s all fine, but then it also isn’t my problem that a more beneficial-for-me system would make another guy miss minyan. They can’t have it both ways. Either we worry about how it affects others, in which case Shabbos is a valid concern, or it’s every man for himself, in which case I don’t care about people who miss minyan as a result unless I’m one of those people.Trump just posted on X that he favors year-round daylight savings time and the republican party will make it a high priority to adopt the needed legislation. No mention of the problems for the cows and frum yidden.
They’ve gone back and forth about year-round daylight savings time and year-round standard time. I think the position is to just pick one time option and stay with it year-round and no more changing back and forth.
Gadol,
Incorrect.
Trump posted to do away with DST and keep standard time all year round, including the summer.
This poses little problem for davening and shabboss. Worst is that those longer Fridays will have the zman an hour sooner.
Im fact, back in the day many camps would run on standard time and did just fine. If it was good for them, its not that bad.
DST supposedly conserve a tiny winy amount of energy, which has not yet been proven, and has negative health effects and messes with our circadian cycle for a while. Many medical associations have recommended against it.
Eighteen months ago, all members of the Senate (including ALL republicans) voted unanimously under a UC to support year round DST but it was not brought to a vote in the House. Earlier this year, Trump’s choice for SoS, Marco Rubio, reintroduced a bill for year round DST. Now, Trump is supporting Elon Musk’s DOGE idea for year-round DST. I think most Americans would be OK would either but don’t like the changing back and forth.
Correction: Now, Trump is supporting Elon Musk’s DOGE idea for year-round ST (not DST). I think most Americans would be OK with either but don’t like the changing back and forth. Agree that the original energy-savings arguments were questionable and even if true 30 years ago, may no longer be valid today.
DST is definitely responsible for a number of car accidents and heart attacks during the spring switch. I dont remember exact number, look it up. And probably more latent effects from the disruption.
It is an interesting illustration of government effects. This policy might have made sense during WW1 and it is still here even if it is probably not useful for at least two decades. We are stuck here because we want everyone in the country to be on the more-or-less same clock. But think how many other policies are unjustifiably done on a federal level, such as health, education – and how many outdated policies are there.
Gadol: I suspect Trump’s position is still in favor of year round DST; I don’t think he made a full 180. Far more likely he just foolishly said the wrong thing.
The way the law is set up right now–from my limited understanding–is that if the federal government allowed for year round DST, it would effectively leave the decision up to the states. If they adopted year-round standard time, it would effectively ban states from doing DST because states cannot do more DST than what is federally sanctioned, but they can do less. A lot of states already adopted legislation saying that if the federal government expands DST or makes it year round they will automatically adopt it as well.
Year round DST would be the pro “states’ rights” approach that one should expect from Republicans. That being said, I have absolutely no idea what to expect from them now that their platform is completely left up to the fleeting whims of one person.
Neville,
I’m not sure what your suspicions are based on. Trump was clear in his message, which aligns with leading medical associations, to do away with DST and stay with Standard Time all year long so we don’t “lose” an hour in the summer.
To broaden your limited understanding, a simple Google search will reveal the 1966 Uniform Time Act, which prohibits year-round DST. However, year-round Standard Time is not illegal.
At this point, the federal government cannot expand DST to be all year, nor does it make sense for most states to do so.
“To broaden your limited understanding, a simple Google search will reveal the 1966 Uniform Time Act, which prohibits year-round DST. However, year-round Standard Time is not illegal.”
Correct. Any state could already adopt year round standard time, or more standard time than others, but cannot take on extra DST. Year round federal DST would effectively mean states could take on as much as they want, or as little (as is already their right).
“I’m not sure what your suspicions are based on.”
A couple of things. For starters, the opposite was widely reported before this sudden shinoy lashon. For two, people commonly say “do away with DST” when they really just mean do away with changing the clocks. You only “lose” an hour in the summer due to the time change. Year round DST would also get rid of this problem, so that’s not a proof. It’s all relative; if every state adopted daylight savings time year round, we would eventually stop calling it DST as it would be an outdated reference. It would just be the new standard time.“At this point, the federal government cannot expand DST to be all year”
Sure they could. It’s not like it’s set by a Constitutional Amendment. Sure, they’ll have to change the laws around a bit, but I think that’s always gone without saying. They already can and have expanded DST within our lifetimes.“nor does it make sense for most states to do so.”
Then there should be no concern with leaving it up to the states. “Most” states won’t do it if it doesn’t “make sense,” then those for whom it makes sense will do it.Will Israel follow along if the U.S. goes to year-round Standard Time?
Neville,
Your arguments were based on the incorrect assumption that the change would be to keep DST all year long. This is not the case.
While some people favor a year-long DST, it is not what Trump proposed.
Your point about the government changing the laws around a “bit” makes it seem like it’s a technical, administrative change. Still, the current law prohibits permanent DST, and the new incoming administration is not proposing it.
“Your arguments were based on the incorrect assumption that the change would be to keep DST all year long. This is not the case.”
No, my argument is that this IS the case, and Trump just isn’t careful with his wording so he randomly says the wrong thing half the time.
Neville,
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
Trump has argued against Daylight Saving Time, but you insist he meant something else. It seems your mind is already made up. Facts might just confuse you.
News sources still seem split on how they’re reporting it, but I don’t see any conclusive evidence of what you’re saying. I’m not sure why you’re pretending I’m the only one interpreting it this way.
When I look up articles, some of them report the proposal outright as “permanent daylight savings time,” while many others use wording like “doing away with time changes,” which could mean either. YWN fell on the “permanent DST” side when they reported it a few days back.
The Daily Wire uses your terminology, but the tweets they’re using as sources only mention getting rid of time changes, which, again, could mean either. They also bring Marco Rubio as an advocate for this, and he’s made it explicitly known that he wants year round DST.
The only proof I will accept is if you have a trustworthy source that uses the terminology “permanent standard time.” Even the phrase “doing away with DST” could actually mean adopting permanent DST as the new standard time and thus doing away with time changes. As I said earlier, it is very, very common for people to mix these up and just use the phrase “daylight savings time” to refer to the act of changing clocks in general. How else do you explain different news sources understanding this differently?
The only article I found that really went all-in on interpreting this your way was one by Newsweek that was using it to bash Trump (remember, everyone outside of frum yidden prefer DST over standard time, so it would be wildly unpopular).
In any case, even if it turns out that Trump really is advocating for what you say (wouldn’t surprise me if he chose the authoritarian idea over the pro-states-rights idea as he is a fake conservative after all), that would just mean I disagree with him as usual. I’m not sure why you think my arguments have to be “based on the understanding” that Trump holds a certain way. I’m still going to be pro-DST and pro-states-rights whether Trump agrees or not. To be honest, I did not come across reporting of Trump weighing in on this, just Vivek and Musk.
Neville,
Trump was very concise in his social media post, all the articles you referred to are just articles and not Trump’s actual position.
I’m not sure if you’re trying to convince yourself or anyone else that this is really about extending daylight savings time to the entire year, when it is not the case.
2scents
I htink youre giving Trump to much credit
his tweets are often fleeting thoughts often with spelling errors often contradicting each other .
while Ihe did tweet hos “proposal” do get rid of DST I’m not sure he knew wah the meantAs NC correctly points out MArco Rubio, is cleary pro permanent DST and in his tweet Elon supported permanent DST as well
You say
“To broaden your limited understanding, a simple Google search will reveal the 1966 Uniform Time Act, which prohibits year-round DST. However, year-round Standard Time is not illegal.
At this point, the federal government cannot expand DST to be all year, nor does it make sense for most states to do so.”I don’t get this the 1966 act was a law by congress, ie the federal government they can just as easily change it as they almost did a few years ago .
you also say ” Trump was clear in his message,” was there any message other than tweet ?(admittedly it was clear though again I’m not sure how much weight to give it)
Ubiq and Neville,
It’s weird to see intelligent individuals like yourself resort to silly bashing and twisting a narrative to satisfy their political position.
Trump is a relatively successful person by many measures. He flies his own custom Boeing 737, is a billionaire, and outwitted not just the mainstream media but also an opponent with the deepest coffers in the history of presidential elections.
Yet you make him seem like some silly goose who tweets randomly and doesn’t even know what he himself meant.
Regardless, the premise was that Trump and Musk favor permanent DST. That isn’t the case, it’s just the opposite, and they happen to be on the right side of the argument.
We can have an honest discussion without tainting and twisting it to justify a political position
“I’m not sure if you’re trying to convince yourself or anyone else that this is really about extending daylight savings time to the entire year, when it is not the case.”
Like I said, I don’t care all that much what Trump’s position is. It could be that you’re right, but you have to realize that you aren’t just arguing against one random guy on the CR. You’re arguing against several major news outlets as well insinuating that Trump is casually making a full 180 on what the Republican party’s stance has been in recent years.
I see you’ve made up your mind as to why I’m wrong about this (scared of facts, trying to convince myself, etc.), but why are all the other sources wrong as well? Same reason?
I fully agree with Ubi about Trump’s tweets. Not only does Trump commonly make mistakes in tweets, but as I pointed out, this is a common mistake to conflate DST with the act of changing clocks. Case and point, none of the articles I found (including the ones that were saying exactly like you) used Trump’s tweet as a “proof.” His tweets are not considered a reliable source even within the pro-Trump media.
In any case, why does any of this matter? Despite the title, this thread was really about how permanent DST would affect the frum community. None of the points that were made were predicated on how Trump holds in the matter.
2scents
“Yet you make him seem like some silly goose who tweets randomly and doesn’t even know what he himself meant.”
Lets use onse specific example
He famously tweeted “Covfefe”
Do you htink this was more than a random tweet?
If yes then clearly he does tweet randomlly (at least sometimes)He welcomed back “Melanie” from the hospital do you think Melania briefly changed her name to Melanie or was that a typo?
If yes then clearly he does have occasional typos?Why are you so sure that THIS tweet is one that he fully thought through and meant
And here’s the real kicker
In 2019 he tweeted the Opposite:
““Making Daylight Saving Time permanent is O.K. with me,” (3/11/19)
OF course he MAY have changed his mind .but this does not seem to be the most likely explanantion
“It’s weird to see intelligent individuals like yourself resort to silly bashing and twisting a narrative to satisfy their political position.”
How so? He brought Agudah and Reb Moshe as authorities that disagree with DST, then AAQ and I argued that they might be [inadvertently] missing the needs of baalhabatim who struggle to make it home before Shabbos. None of our discussion had anything to do with Trump until you came along. The DOGE news was just the catalyst. Our discussion would have looked exactly the same had it been reported as you are saying.
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