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You would think that the priorities for a day of prayer would be our hostages who are being tortured and a pikuach nefesh situation, or our soldiers (whether religious or not) who are putting their lives on their line to protect all of us in Eretz Yisroel from multiple fronts of genocidal enemies… I still can’t fathom how drafting lomdei Torah (and Charedim who aren’t lomdei Torah) into the army is a bigger crisis than that.
First of all, Mr. Simcha613, you should show a little more respect to our Gedolei hador. Has it occurred to you that maybe just maybe the Gedolim thought of your Genius question and decided to do what they did anyway….??? Unfortunately, like many in our impoverished generation you clearly don’t get the concept of Daas Torah.
Second of all the answer to your question is so simple. The gedolim have called for many days of tefilah over the past year and half for the terrible situation of the war and the hostages. Although it is terrible that the war is still ongoing and not all hostages returned, that doesn’t mean that there cannot be another tzara at the same time which we need to daven for!!!
Please, a little common sense…!Simcha, I asked on the newspage about an irony here: the fast is commemorating Jews fasting under direction of Esther before going to battle against the enemies. Where does tefila against the draft go in the service then? Right before thanking Hashem for letting our army win against Haman?
I got two answers (I presume the rest agreed): (1) current army has girls (2) Purim army was led by Mordechai (not really, the order was from Esther and Jews presumably organized locally, Mordechai was not the general).
So, based on these answers, I am suggesting that every bochur should make a written stipulation with the army that he should be drafted and one of the chiloni maidens should go to a sem instead. Then, at the end of the service, he gets the first dibs for shidduch. Let’s see if the army agrees.
And after enough bochrim join the army, some will become generals, the way other religious generals got there.
Nosson Nota said this on YWN on December 23, 2024:
“How come nobody here has anything to say about the endless
thousands of families in which the husband / father has been away
from his kollel / job/ wife / children for months on end and sacrificing
his health and sometimes his life, while there are tens of thousands
of young Charedi men available, many of whom
are not even learning, who could have given them a break?”===========================================
Mordy180 said this on YWN on December 23, 2024:“Imagine if Yehoshua [ben Nun] went to fight Amalek and the
Charedim refused to go. Only Leviim were exempt.The current war is Milchemes Mitzvah and Pikuach Nefesh.
They can ask for support positions and totally separate units
but to claim that the Chayalim are their servants
like garbage men is the height of Gaiva and Sinis Chinom.”===========================================
[email protected] said this on YWN on December 23, 2024:“Among the thousands upon thousands of people [who] are
celebrating the 80th anniversary of the freeing of the Rebbe of Satmar zt”l \
from the Holocaust, did anyone mention that it was THE ZIONISTS
who saved him by putting him on a train out of
Hungary — the very train that UJM spits upon?”===========================================
ShloimeBoruch said this on YWN on December 23, 2024:“…the Satmar Rebbe, who was rescued by those Evil Zionists…”
===========================================
AWeiszGuy said this on YWN on December 22, 2024:“These Yidden [Jews] who don’t support Medinat Yisrael
[the State of Israel] should not have the protection of Tzahal [the Israeli Army].”“All you anti-Zionists here are disgusting self-hating Jews
who will get yours when Moshiach arrives.”===========================================
ac23 said this on YWN on December 22, 2024:“You can be a Zionist and a Ben Torah.
In fact, I have no doubt in my mind that a [Religious] Zionist’s limud
is worth Aseret Monim [ten times] over your fake learning.You have your own hateful religion that is completely disconnected from Judaism.
Enjoy the galut; you have no chelek in Eretz Israel and surely not be redeemed.”
===========================================
smms said this on YWN on December 22, 2024:“Many of the early Zionists were indeed rotten to the core
and did not care that Jews were being murdered
by the Germans, even welcomed it.But, as Rabbi Yaakov Kaminetzky zt’l and others have said,
the fact that the State of Israel provided a homeland to Jews
after the awful Churban, when nobody wanted them,
should mitigate our kana’us toward the State.You need to be completely blind not to see how
in many significant ways the secular state of Israel
has been beneficial for frum Jews over the years.And in any event, many of today’s Israels are not
secular ideologues and atheists like the old Zionists.Everyone wants to be cool and curse them out,
but at the same time use their services.
The root of this attitude is not Ahavas Yisrael
but Sin’as Yisrael.”Simcha613: Since you are clearly greater and wiser than the greatest Torah sages of our generation in the form of the collective wisdom of the Gedolei HaDor on the saintly Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, you should fire all those Talmidei Chachonim and replace them with people who know better than them (such as yourself) on when to establish a day of prayer.
@Simcha613 – Give it a rest. They’ll never see things your way.
@AAQ – There are maybe 1-2 Dati generals in the IDF and this is a major problem. Datiim usually see their active duty military careers dead-end at Lieutnant Colonel (they usually reach General in reserve duty only). The Ramatkal is certainly Chiloni LeMehadrin and intends to stay that way. That is a major problem, and is why there are so many generals who came out as leftists once they left the army and joined politics. It’s something the RZ community has been trying to change for years, but they need the Charedi community’s help changing that. That can only happen if Charedim enlist and help force the change.
simcha- r’ akiva answered your question to turnus rufus with the fish mashal
simcha- no but im saying spiritual survival is just as if not more important than physical survival
Zsk, I am not well versed in internals of tzahal. Would it be a case of rz having, on average, less interest in full time Army career, or is it that people tend promote people with similar values?
Ard, there’s nothing in the Torah about protecting our spiritual values at the expense of other people and Hashem’s values. If you are carrying such a sentiment, you then presume that lives and spiritual situation of other Jews is of no value to you. I think the authors of these letters realize the difficulty. That is why they are smoothing over it by constantly putting together prayers for hostages and for those who don’t want to serve, trying to somehow latch to the prayers of the whole am yisroel.
But this only highlights the contradiction; Hashem please save the hostages, but not thru us. Esther tried that but then she listened to Mordechai.@Always_Ask_Questions – I’m not an insider but I live in Israel and this is an issue the Dati Leumi public discusses (even putting it in inappropriate places like עלוני שבת). The Ramatkal has an interest in maintaining the Chiloni Mehadrin command structure, so they promote those who share their values and POV to the highest echelons of the IDF.
@Simcha613 – You’re 100% right. But this is Yeshiva World News, so a significant plurality here is not going to agree with you and will outright reject it.was it on the day of prayer that a son & a grandson of Meir Porush weer assaulted? I did not see it on front page here, as if safety & dignity of haredi politicians are not important.
simcha > similar spiritual challenges occur when fathers and husbands realize they need to start providing for their families
part of the problem that charedi defense mechanism is based on isolation. I see same in US. My teens sometimes host friends from isolated towns – and some of them start doing questionable things the moment they are OOT. This is like someone who grew up in sterile environment and having no immunity against common diseases. So, the fears of exposure are partially reasonable and it is very reasonable to provide special units for such soldiers. I was reading about some charedim working on F-16 maintenance where get exposure to complex cognitive tasks and no serious challenge to the lifestyle. Hopefully, both sides can work jointly on figuring out a solution. Maybe those who learned how to search internet thru filters can join cyberunits 🙂
ZSK > significant plurality here is not going to agree with you
but this is a safe way for that group to get exposed to different opinions without risking physical exposure to army officers.
aaq- just making sure you realize that when you say “the authors of these letters” you are referring to the gedolei hador
I think my true colors have come out. I don’t think Charedim should be exempt.
Exactly. And that’s why your righteous indignation at ywhat you
perceive as skewed priorities is completely baseless, since you completely devalue the other side.The Israeli military is ashamed machine despite your protests, and even if it weren’t, taking the lomdei Torah out of the beis medrash would be a tragedy which would affect all of Klal Yisroel both spiritually and ultimately physically as well.
Since you don’t agree with these sentiments, of course you don’t believe there should be tefilos for the yeshivo and yeshiva bochurim.
Stop pretending it’s about the hostages – the chareidim daven for them more than anyone else does, and your insinuating that they don’t care is disingenuous and despicable.
ard > you realize that when you say “the authors of these letters”
And I am trying to understand the motivation besides these difficult lashonos – and giving you an opportunity to put your explanation, or if you have access, direct or phone or email to them or people around them – you can just ask these questions directly and let us know.
Daas > taking the lomdei Torah out of the beis medrash would be a tragedy
so, you are also for drafting those charedim that are not in beis midrash? Is this your personal opinion, Daas Yachid?
@ard – If you think the Gedolei HaDor actually authored these letters, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Askanim write the letters, the “Gedolim” simply rubber stamp them after receiving partial information. This is known and it is why Pashkevilim and these letters are very hard to take seriously.
@DaasYochid – He’s not necessarily devaluing the other side, he’s criticising (justifiably, I might add) Charedim for continuing to act like their blood is סומק טפי in a situation that is Pikuach Nefesh (maybe even Milchemes Mitzvah, but I don’t want to have that debate) – which demands picking up a gun and defending yourself. הבא להורגך השכם להורגו applies here, as does האחיכם יבאו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה. The fact that Charedim don’t and consistently look for every single excuse not to – that speaks volumes in of itself. You cannot expect those who serve and put their lives at risk to just be okay with a large segment of the population being able to just opt-out while they cannot. To the Chiloni majority, תורתו אומנותו is not a valid reason. Mental/physical illness is basically the only thing they will accept. To the DL community, תורתו אומנותו is valid, but there’s no way תורתו אומנותו applies to every single person in the Charedi sector, and it’s also applied in far too broad a manner to be reasonable.
ZSK: Were glad you clarified that you think the Gedolei HaDor are simpletons and puppets who simply and merely “rubber stamp” whatever untruths some big shots put on papers in front of them, since you believe they are too stupid to know the truth that intelligent men such as yourself easily know.
It looks like there are 2 issues in elections:
They have legitimate reasons to believe that it is against Hashem’s ratzon to join the IDF.
The fact that you can only ascribe selfish motives doesn’t say much about your having an ayin tovah.
UJM: Joseph, you missed the point like usual.
The point was that the names of our illustrious Gedolim are too often plastered all over every Pashkevil and letter willy-nilly with no thought of the consequences or necessity – or even if the Pashkevil may in fact be based on nonsense (or worse, political machinations), which makes such letters hard to take seriously. Askanim are the ones responsible for this, because they don’t provide the whole story, and that is a known fact. All of this is known, and any Chaim Yankel who spends any amount of time in a Charedi enclave knows this. That is essentially “rubber stamping” (and rampant abuse of Rabbinic authority by Askanim), and it is beyond unfortunate that it occurs.
FWIW, there is also the fact that I’m not a fan of ranking Rabbonim and even considering some to be completely infallible, but that is a different conversation.
DaasYochid:
They may have legitimate reasons. But we don’t have to accept them, and indeed most outside the Charedi sector do not.Ayin tovah? I’m not sure whether you’re addressing me or not, but regardless, give me a break. In other forums, I’m usually labeled a “RZ Charedi Apologist” or “Not truly RZ”. There is plenty of room to argue Charedim are selfish for not considering themselves part of the Kahal and constantly and consistency declare themselves exempt from any national obligation or responsibility toward others. I don’t see any selfless motives in that. I’m more than happy to hear what selfless motives you can ascribe to declaring oneself absolved of all national obligations and engaging in absolute austritt other than taking money from institutions such individuals essentially hate.
ZSK:
That Chilonim don’t accept תורתו אומנותו as a valid exemption is absolutely no reason anyone shouldn’t utilize that exemption, regardless of Chilonim not accepting it.
By the way, Chilonim do accept the “soldiers” in the IDF who are part of the IDF choir (Lakat Tzahal) or the orchestra (Tizmorot Tzahal) or the band or the honor guard (Mishmor Hakovod), entertainment positions in the IDF, filmmaking , photography, sports, or the radio and media (Galei Tzahal), the IDF theatre group (Teatron Tzahal) and other non-critical, non-combat units.
Yet, תורתו אומנותו is less important than to have entertainers, theatre production, filmmaking, orchestra, choirs, etc., who are not fighting in combat. Torah study, of course, is being “parasitical”.
The mathematical reality is that only a tiny tiny percent of Jews opt out due to Torah. The fact that the majority aren’t religious r”l altogether and even by the religious most don’t value Torah enough to dedicate themselves to it, thereby leaving Chareidim as the main source for the tiny percent of Jews dedicated to Torah, is irrelevant to the fact that means the Chareidim need to mostly be exempt.
And, aside from all of the above, and as DaasYochid alluded to above, there’s every good reason even for people who are *not* dedicated to full time Torah study to make absolutely certain that they never join the treif IDF. The IDF is well reknown and infamous for its rampant immorality as well as rabid anti-religious fervor, that in order to self-preserve one’s very basic Judaism any observant Jew should stay far away from the IDF.
And all this is even before getting into the facts that the IDF is not short soldiers that is causing them to lose battles or wars due to a lack of combat personnel. This fact was well admitted to by multiple to IDF personnel before the current war. They don’t want Chareidim because they need them; they want Chareidim in order to make them no longer Chareidi.
And all of the above is before, and in addition to, the fact that it is the Zionists who triggered and caused the conflict with the Arabs and Islamic world over the last hundred years. Something the Torah world was always opposed to, from the very inception of Zionism.
So the Zionists caused a hundred years of wars and terrorism — and then demand those who opposed them in creating these conflicts to then join them in the very conflicts they caused.
ujm > That Chilonim don’t accept תורתו אומנותו as a valid exemption is absolutely no reason anyone shouldn’t utilize that exemption, regardless of Chilonim not accepting it.
Gemora brings such example in Bava Basra – Rabonim refused to pay roman tax. The “chilonim” did not like that. Rabbis told them – you can leave. At the end, after the last launderer left, the romans abolished the tax. So, just move to one town, let Tzahal leave you alone. That is fair. Accepting protection and not paying for it is against halakha.
> So the Zionists caused a hundred years of wars and terrorism
I can understand Jews from Old Yishuv complaining, but most of the charedim came to EY when Zionists “were already in the Land”.
So, what rights do they have to complain? Just move to Iran or Russia, explain to them that you are anti-Z, and live happily thereafter.ZSK > There is plenty of room to argue Charedim are selfish for not considering themselves part of the Kahal
There is a concept in mussar to verify that your actions are actually based on correct motivation. Say, Alter from Slobodka did not want to go great some visitor that others considered hoshuv. To make sure he is not doing it because he is stam lazy, he walked to the hotel, stopped there, thought it over again, and walked back home. So, a true charedi will not put himself in a position where his views dictate him actions that are convenient for him. If you think you should not be drafted, take upon yourself to go do something supportive of soldiers equivalent amount of time every day.
UJM and your other aliases –
Blah, blah, blah, Zionism and Zionists bad, IDF bad. You’re a broken record. And you continue to intentionally misconstrue what’s being said to you.
The OP’s point is that it is super tone-deaf and insensitive to call for a day of prayer to avoid army service in the middle of a war where Charedim are the only ones (other than Israeli Arabs, who no one trusts with weapons) sitting pretty not sending their family members off to war, and not really even doing the necessary extra learning to protect soldiers. Only the utterly clueless could fail to understand that very fair and justifiable criticism.
My point to ard was very simple: Gedolim often aren’t the ones writing Pashkevilim or the letters mentioned within the OP. Askanim are writing them, and they back their positions with partial/faulty information, which is what is fed to the Gedolim. The Gedolim allow their signatures to be used based on that partial/faulty information. That’s why these letters are hard to take seriously. I can think of two recent examples where this happened and the fallout ended up with many losing respect for Gedolim. That’s it. You decided to take that as me being disrespectful of Rabbonim, when that isn’t so.
My point to DaasYochid (and later on to you) was my above statement about tone-deaf actions, only expanding it to include a general explanation of the resentment toward the Charedi public in general and during a war in particular, since I felt it necessary.
As for your comments about the IDF: The IDF does not devalue Torah learning. At all. I know this first hand. There are issues to be sure, but you are definitely not the person to have that conversation with, since you’re more interested in criticism and blame than anything else and it’s a waste of time.
I sense an implied accusation that I don’t consider תורתו אומנותו to be important – that is revolting to say the least. I never said such a thing, and would never say such a thing. I’ve said it is applied too broadly and is a net negative when applied too broadly. The RZ community doesn’t believe that either. They tend to share my view – that it’s applied too broadly.
One last thing: You said: “even by the religious most don’t value Torah enough to dedicate themselves to it, thereby leaving Chareidim as the main source for the tiny percent of Jews dedicated to Torah” – This a canard, lie and utter falsehood and you should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking it.
AAQ: Accepting protection and not paying for it is against halakha.
The Chareidim never asked for their protection. They lived in Eretz Yisroel long long before the Zionists existed… and they’ll still be living there long long after the Zionists disappear into the dustbin of history.
I can understand Jews from Old Yishuv complaining, but most of the charedim came to EY when Zionists “were already in the Land”.
Chareidim were established in Eretz Yisroel hundreds of years before the Zionists. Only afterwards did Zionists come (with their tuma and secularism) to the land that they then defiled. Sure, more Chareidim came later, as well. But many Zionists also came even later. But before Zionism even existed, let alone Zionists moved to the land, Chareidi communities were well established in Eretz Yisroel from at least the time of the Baal Shem Tov and the Vilna Gaon.
So, what rights do they have to complain? Just move to Iran or Russia, explain to them that you are anti-Z, and live happily thereafter.
The Zionst-come-latelys can move to Iran, Russia and Poland. Zionists already live in large numbers in Germany and Thailand. More of them can pack their bags and move to those lovely places.
ZSK: it is super tone-deaf and insensitive to call for a day of prayer to avoid army service in the middle of a war
Absolutely not. It is an absolute obligation to daven to Hashem that you not be drafted into the IDF; just as much as it was our absolute obligation to daven to not be drafted into the Russian Czar’s army under the Cantonist system. I already explained why above.
My point to ard was very simple: Gedolim often aren’t the ones writing Pashkevilim or the letters
Yeah, yeah, you needn’t repeat yourself. We understand quite well your point. Namely, that you believe that Gedolei Yisroel are a bunch of foolish bufoons who blindly sign unto statements that lying big shots fool them with, being the Gedolim are unable and unwilling to seek the truth before giving their John Hancocks.
My point to DaasYochid (and later on to you) was my above statement about tone-deaf actions, only expanding it to include a general explanation of the resentment toward the Charedi public in general
Jews have been “resented” throughout history. Pharoh resented us. Amalek resented us. The Assyrians resented us. The Babylonians resented us. The Yevonim resented us. The Crusaders resented us. The Spanish resented us. The Cossacks resented us. The Christian Church resented us. The Germans resented us. The Reform “Jews” resented us. The list goes on.
The IDF does not devalue Torah learning.
They most certainly do. The value immorality, as the scandals throughout their history with women has clearly exemplified.
I sense an implied accusation that I don’t consider תורתו אומנותו to be important
I made no such accusation about you. Please improve your reading comprehension before mindlessly rambling and spouting nonsense. I said that the IDF does not value תורתו אומנותו.
What the IDF does value is their choir (Lakat Tzahal), their orchestra (Tizmorot Tzahal), their band, their honor guard (Mishmor Hakovod), their “soldiers” who provide entertainment, their filmmaking “soldiers”, their photography division, their sports teams, their radio and media group (Galei Tzahal), and their theatre group.
The IDF drafts into their army people to “serve” as their entertainers, theatre production, filmmaking, orchestra, choirs, etc.
But the IDF did not, does not and will not ever draft soldiers to serve in תורתו אומנותו.
They need those personnel serving as media and radio announcers, in their bands and choirs, as entertainers and filmmakers.
Torah doesn’t cut it.
Now go demand that they disband their units serving as entertainers, theatre production, filmmaking, orchestras and choirs and send them into combat. After all, they need to be defending Israel from the Arabs.
One last thing: You said: “even by the religious most don’t value Torah enough to dedicate themselves to it, thereby leaving Chareidim as the main source for the tiny percent of Jews dedicated to Torah” – This a canard, lie and utter falsehood
It is the absolute truth. Even among the totality of Jews who are observant and religious, only a small minority dedicate their lives to Torah study.
Saying “it is unfair that Chareidim are exempt from the army” is virtually synonymous as saying “it is unfair that the Torah scholars are exempt from the army”. As it happens, a large proporion of those who dedicate their lives to full time Torah study, are Chareidim. And Chareidim, and full time Torah learners, are small minority of the Jewish People.
The Jewish People need their units of dedicated Torah students. There are too few of such people, as it is. That Chareidim volunteer and are over-represented in this class of people, is something to be commended. And sought more of. We need more Jews dedicated to full-time Torah study.
ujm > The Zionst-come-latelys can move to Iran, Russia and Poland
why? Israeli Jews, more-or-less, accept democracy, vote in elections, and follow the laws enacted by the elected government. So, only those who disagree with that have a problem. And, again, solution is very simple – you can stay within EY and move to areas not currently under control of Medinah.
ujm > “it is unfair that the Torah scholars are exempt from the army”
so, you are in favor of charedim who are not Torah scholars to go to the army. Maybe, there are several questions here (1) those who are not learning and (2) those who cannot pass a test on their learning (3) those who pass the test but do not show Torah attitudes in their behavior towards other Jews?
As one ger, former rapper, wondered – if we have more students now than at the time of Rambam, then our generation would have 100 Rambams. Where are they?
AAQ: I’ve been very clear that I oppose any mitzvah observant Jew from joining the chazer-treif IDF, with its rampant immorality and worse.
Additionally, regarding Torah scholars, aptitude is no prerequisite. Even if someone takes a full days worth of Torah study to master each pasuk in Chumash, and he does that regularly so that after a hundred days he “only” learnt one hundred psekukim and no more, he is just as worthy a Torah scholar as the guy sitting next to him who mastered a mesechta every week, including full fluency in Rashi, Tosfos and the Meforshim, and completed 15 mesechtas in the same time the first scholar finished a hundred pesukim of Chumash.
Regarding the other point, the Ran in Nedarim paskens that every Jew has an absolute right to live in Eretz Yisroel; so much so that he rules the Halacha of Dina D’Malchusa Dina is NOT applicable for Jews in Eretz Yisroel since the basis of Dina D’Malchusa Dina is that since the local King allows Jews to live in his country, the Jews must abide by his laws. But since in Eretz Yisroel every Jew has a natural G-d given right to live there, they don’t owe allegiance to the laws of the of the current ruling authority there, while we are in galus (and Eretz Yisroel today is in galus.)
> I’ve been very clear that I oppose any mitzvah observant Jew from joining the chazer-treif IDF,
so, then why are dreining my kopf with talking about T’Ch? trying to get more sympathy? Using gnevas daas to support your “Torah-based” views? what could be more chazer than being not honest when pretending to defend Torah positions?!
> aptitude is no prerequisite.
sure, if your parents or in-laws can support you and provide protection. But sometimes practicalities matter. R Aha b’ Yaakov sent his son to the yeshiva, while staying behind working the fields. When the son came back at the end of the year, he examined his son, saw that the progress is not high enough, so he left his son working and went to yeshiva himself (where minor miracles happened for him upon arrival …). So, was he a worse parent than today’s charedim not letting his son doodle on the pages of Mishna for another year?
> Ran in Nedarim
Again, they are free to live there and defend themselves. In all your postings, you seem to have profound confusion between what a person can do on his own and what he can do by taking from others without their permission. I suggest reviewing R Dessler’s essay on taking and giving personalities and maybe Maseches Nezikin.
@ujm –
There are at least 80 Hesder Yeshivot with permanent Kollelim. They are army yeshivot, and receive money from the IDF/Israeli government. So no, the IDF (and by extension the Israeli government) does not devalue Torah Study. Quite the opposite, actually.
To be sure, there are certainly things in the IDF that should be less priority (some of the things you mentioned) – but you have those things when there is an ideologically secularist upper echelon.
As for Charedim being the only ones significantly engaged in Torah Study in a permanent manner – again, you’re a pathetic liar. And I can easily argue that Charedim are not any more engaged in Torah Study than the RZ sector is (something that is blindingly obvious to anyone who has lived in or adjacent to Charedi enclaves for any extended period of time).
The excuses you’ve provided are pathetic. RZ soldiers are attending Shiurim in between rounds of fighting in Gaza and Lebanon. The photos of soldiers’ notebooks full of Torah have been shown all over the place in Jewish media, as have photos of those Shiurim.
You’re wrong, hopelessly ignorant and completely unlettered.
@AAQ – He wouldn’t accept a test to determine exemptions – because it would have been developed (and possibly administered) by Zionists, which by definition is a no-go in his book. Even if the Gedolim created such a test, he would reject it on the grounds that the Gedolim caved to the Zionists – and they are therefore not Geolim anymore. To ujm and his ilk, there is no situation where anyone may have anything to do with the State unless it is to take money.
ZSK, someone should develop a TSAT, a Torah SAT and then get gedolim to support it. Sara Schenirer did not wait for Chofetz chaim to come up with an idea to do schools for girls … In our day and age, we need some simple measure of learning – not just for exemptions, but also for allocating tzedokah, shidduchim … it is silly to rely on “he is a smart boy” from some unknown rebbe. I realize that there are some distortions caused y measurements (people studying for tests, there are many ways to learn Torah, etc), but I think benefits are more important.
@AAQ – I like the idea.
In Israel, the RZ sector has “bagruyot” – basically tests you need to pass to be considered to have graduated high school – that are in Tanach and Torah She-Ba’al Peh.
I don’t see any problem with such a test being applied globally, and modified as needed to suit communal needs.
ZSK, do any yeshivos in America use quantitative marks? tests? class rank?
I recently found that R Soloveitchik was also bothered by this already in the 50s. He writes – how is that I am giving the same semicha to a talented T’Ch and to a B- student. Did YU or anyone else figured out semicha cum laude?
@AAQ – I have no idea, but I suspect not. Certainly there was nothing of the sort when I was in school in the 90s-2000s.
That’s an interesting statement by RJBS – and I agree with it. I’ve said before that there are far too many people with Semicha who shouldn’t be allowed within 10 feet of a Shulchan Aruch.
from Rosh Yeshiva from Mir:
To obtain this “learning Torah is his profession” exemption (Toraso Umanuso), a statement attesting to that fact needed to be signed by the Rosh Yeshiva of each Yeshiva institution. Rav Laizer Yudel, with tears in his eyes, would tell each student that asked for his signature on the statement that “Torah is his profession” the following: “I have never told a falsehood in my life. I am signing that your profession is to study Torah. Please learn diligently and commit yourself to it, so that I am not a liar.”So then what are we waiting for? Obviously we have not come to the level of serious Teshuva and Achdus together as one loving nation that Hashem is expected from his loving children klal yisroel and therefore the horrific tragedies hitting klal yisroel worldwide including this current israel-Hamas war and bochurim being forced to join the IDF has not been enough to wake up klal yisroel to serious Teshuva and Achdus together as one loving nation so Hashem can send Mashiach already bkarov.
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