- This topic has 29 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Do you seem to find that an overwhelming majority (I’d estimate at least 85%) of mispalelim around you in shul, sound like they’re just saying words printed in the siddur – lacking any true (or even superficial) kavannah?
I hear people near me just mumble words (doing other things simultaneously), not sounding like they really are thinking about the tefillah. Would they use this tactic standing in front of a human king or judge (lehavdil)? I’m pretty sure that they’d make it a point to clearly enunciate and mean every word.
What do you think causes such an epidemic? Lack of appreciation of Tefillah? Not understanding the Hebrew? Lack of care?
Let’s improve our Tefillah during these Three Weeks.
I think that part of the cause of it is the fact that in todays world we are expected to constantly be in a hurry.
Which you notice during your intense concentration on your tefilos
everyone is always glued to their smartphone instead of taking the time to slow down. We are living in a time where everything has to happen in seconds or people arent interested. Whats happening to us?
i used to see many more people davening properly i dont see it anymore. i have to have at least an hour and half head start just to keep up and on shabbos too!!!! where can you possibly be in a rush to on shabbos and yom tov. Why do people only daven properly on R”H and Y”K? bottom line is davening w/o proper kavana is worthless.
Frumguy where do you daven?
The way people sound while davening is not necessarily an indication of what they are thinking and feeling while davening.
That said, it would probably be beneficial for kavanah if everyone were to slow down and say everything with good articulation and evident enthusiasm.
Regardless, we shouldn’t pay attention to other people davening because we’re not really supposed to be able to hear them anyway. Maybe we should create huge, spacious shuls in which everyone gets to daven at least 10 feet from anyone else?
Let’s improve our Tefillah during these Three Weeks.
Since bein adam l’chaveiro issues is the reason for the 3 weeks…Let’s be less judgemental of other yidden. We should concentrate on our own shortcomings than what others are doing.
How many people get to speak with a human king or judge three times a day? Many people forget to be careful because they fall into the trap of letting each tefillah, because of its frequency, lose that special kavanah. It is something we all need to improve.
Davening with kavanah is not easy. It doesn’t come naturally. It doesn’t come without effort, and learning, and prayer (about prayer).
I’ve found some of the teachings of Breslov chassidut (as collected in Likutei Eitzos, all the collected practical advice from Rebbe Nachman’s works) to be helpful in this regard. He has a number of suggestions for achieving kavanah in davening, and also places great emphasis on the importance of hisbodedus, or personal prayer in one’s own words, as a daily supplement to the required prayers.
If you Google “As soon as a person stands up to pray, he is immediately surrounded by extraneous thoughts” and “pour out your heart like water before God,” the relevant chapters will come right up.
What I have found is that the way to really impact the davening is to be a good example. I like to Daven loud and I try to daven with Kavanah and feeling and I find that when Im into it, it tends to rub off on the people sitting around me and they start davening louder and with more feeling. Davening is one of those things where you can really impact other people just by you doing your best to Daven with a lot of dveikus.
I would like to add that good Davening starts before Davening. the hachana and attitude we come to davening with is key to a successful Tefillah. If you go straight to Davening from conversation and shmoozing, well its not going to be easy to switch tracks and get into a focused davening state. I have seen people shmooze it up and then a second later roll up their sleeves and put on Tefillin. We need to think more about what we do. Bottom line.
jewishfeminist02
When there were kings they had advisers and if those advisers chas veshalom didnt act with the right respect they were thrown in prison and in some cases killed on the spot depending on the power of the king and if he had absolute power and all that.
frumguy
If every single day I had a minimum of 3 standing appointments during which I recited the same exact predetermined text in front of the king/judge, then yes after a while (5 years? 10? 20?) I would start mumbling ina way that didnt SOUND like I was having kavana
note: I am not saying this is right just answering your question:
“Would they use this tactic standing in front of a human king or judge (lehavdil)?”
without a doubt yes!
Given that we so often pray with less than adequate Kavono, this hence makes it less excusable not to stay up Shovu’os nite and pray at daybreak on the 1st day of Shovu’os.
If we so often pray haphazardly anyways, so what excuse is there left to sleep Shovu’os nite to pray so intensely on the 1st morning of Shovu’os?
musser zoger
The Frumguy-
Let’s improve our Tefillah during these Three Weeks.
Since bein adam l’chaveiro issues is the reason for the 3 weeks…Let’s be less judgemental of other yidden. We should concentrate on our own shortcomings than what others are doing.
So let’s point out the shortcomings of The Frumguy for pointing out the shortcomings of what others are doing. Since bein adam l’chaveiro issues is the reason for the 3 weeks. Right.
Part of the problem is that we Daven 3 times every day and its hard for most people to not have davening be a routine. One has to come up with ways to keep Davening “fresh”. That being said I think one way to help overcome this is for a person to take 5-10 minutes a day to read the english of the words or a sefer on davening. That way one will learn more about davening and hopefully it will be “fresher”.
A teacher of mine arranged the Siddur Alats Libi with this problem in mind; people should focus on the portions of tefillah that are absolutely necessary halakhically and focus on that, with kavvanah. It is almost impossible to keep up with the speedy minyanim we have nowadays with any modicum of kavvanah.
According to beninguman in another thread, it isnt a problem because of ????? ????.
I used to Daven very quickly. Someone once complained about it to a Rabbi of mine. His response was, “If only everyone would Daven like him. He finishes Davening quickly then immediately opens a Sefer as he steps out of Sh’moneh Esrei”. If you can’t concentrate on Davening, use those empty moments in Shul to learn. It will help you concentrate on Davening more too.
WIY, I find it disturbs me when others daven loudly. Perhaps when those around you daven more loudly, it’s so they can hear themselves over your voice.
Kavanah is never measured in decibel level. One may not daven loudly in a manner that is disturbing to others. It is commonplace in many shuls that there are individuals who are so enamored with their own voice that they continually make themselves heard at the expense of others. Likewise, there is often a “rebbe” who puts on a display of answering ??? or ??? ???? ??? in a way which “appears” to be righteous but is really old fashioned ????. We must be constantly aware that true kavanah is completely ????? ????.
It is a great idea to do something in each and every tefila that is totally personal. One magid shiur would suggest to his talmidim that each bochur say something personal in every ???? ???? that was recited silently and his own language. Someone else suggested that everyone choose any part of davening, a bracha, a posuk, etc., study it, and make it their own. That would be always the place during which that individual would establish a connection to ???”?. hopefully, that would expand, but there is at least some place during tefila where the connection to ???”? occurs.
Most likely they don’t pay as much attention because they do it so often. Doing it often means it turns into a habit. When someone has a habit they do it almost instinctively without much thinking involved at all. So they result to thinking of other matters without even noticing, especially when there is MUCH to think about. They may be speaking in front of the king… 3 times a day, every day. They get accustomed.
the little I know:
Kavanah is never measured in decibel level. One may not daven loudly in a manner that is disturbing to others. It is commonplace in many shuls that there are individuals who are so enamored with their own voice that they continually make themselves heard at the expense of others. Likewise, there is often a “rebbe” who puts on a display of answering ??? or ??? ???? ??? in a way which “appears” to be righteous but is really old fashioned ????. We must be constantly aware that true kavanah is completely ????? ????.
It is a great idea to do something in each and every tefila that is totally personal. One magid shiur would suggest to his talmidim that each bochur say something personal in every ???? ???? that was recited silently and his own language. Someone else suggested that everyone choose any part of davening, a bracha, a posuk, etc., study it, and make it their own. That would be always the place during which that individual would establish a connection to ???”?. hopefully, that would expand, but there is at least some place during tefila where the connection to ???”? occurs.
An excellent post that is worth repeating.
yehudayona
Daven in a chassidish place. Its normal to raise your voice by Davening. I don’t scream or make “kolos” I raise my voice when I Daven to a conversational level. Shemoneh esrei is meant to be silent. The rest should be loud. Its called pesukei dzimrah (from the loshon of zemer-song) for a reason.
The little I know
Interesting that when it comes to Davening a little loudly people are disturbed. I guess you never attended a loud ball game or anything of the sort. Yes its inappropriate to scream and shout (in most shuls) but its perfectly normal to daven out loud and with feeling. I have never seen an adam chashuv that doesnt raise his voice by Davening. If you enjoy and feel your davening you raise your voice. In fact there are places in davening where we mention the concept of saying Hashems praises to others, theres the idea that when you Daven you should Daven out loud and “spur on and urge” others to praise Hashem and sing to Him.
yehudayona
Daven in a chassidish place. Its normal to raise your voice by Davening. I don’t scream or make “kolos” I raise my voice when I Daven to a conversational level. Shemoneh esrei is meant to be silent. The rest should be loud. Its called pesukei dzimrah (from the loshon of zemer-song) for a reason.
The little I know
Interesting that when it comes to Davening a little loudly people are disturbed. I guess you never attended a loud ball game or anything of the sort. Yes its inappropriate to scream and shout (in most shuls) but its perfectly normal to daven out loud and with feeling. I have never seen an adam chashuv that doesnt raise his voice by Davening. If you enjoy and feel your davening you raise your voice. In fact there are places in davening where we mention the concept of saying Hashems praises to others, theres the idea that when you Daven you should Daven out loud and “spur on and urge” others to praise Hashem and sing to Him.
WIY – I have never seen an adam chashuv that doesnt raise his voice by davening
I’ve never seen one who does, and I had the zechus of sitting almost directly behind the hanholo when I was in Gateshead Yeshiva. I’ve seen R’ Nosson Tzvi ztz”l daven too and he never raised his voice. Same with R’ Yaakov Hillel and R’ Chaim Kanievsky. In fact you may wish to check your Mishnah Berurah (95, 5) who says that it is ossur to raise one’s voice during davening.
WIY:
Where I often daven, there are several individuals who daven louder than most others. In one case, it is clearly ????, as he tries desperately to insure that others hear him. This same fellow is always yelling at others who have just entered the building, are still discussing something with someone else, and haven’t yet entered the actual beis hamedrash, where tefiloh has not started yet. Another individual paces around, oblivious to the world, davening loudly, but clearly enveloped in his tefilo. This fellow actually triggers ????????. Another is enamored with his own voice, singing his way loudly, looking around to see who is watching.
I’ve been to ball games in my youth, and loud crowds are not the issue. The parallel is selichos, parts of davening that everyone says loudly. I’m not into total silence, as one might find in many churches. But to be disturbing to others is not acceptable.
The true Odom Chashuv does not disturb others, not by davening, nor any other time. Raising the voice is not the problem. One might move hands and arms during davening also. While not on the decibel scale, this, too, can be either spontaneous and reflective of kavanah, or it could be for display purposes only. For the latter, there is a legendary Kotzker vort.
My responsibility by davening is to establish my own connection to ???”?. If it real and sincere, others might be affected by it. But it is not my job to carry on such that it would make a good movie, just to create an impression of sincerity which is untrue.
Once a Rav was asked “How many people Daven in your Shul”? “About 20 percent”! He replied!
just my hapence
I don’t think they whisper. Maybe they say it in a low voice. Are you sure they weren’t voicing at all? Or some of it they were and some they werent? were you paying close attention?
A suggestion I once read was to find one perek of tehillim in Pesukei deZimrah that particularly speaks to you, and focus on singing it be arikhut with a nigun you like. For me, Tehillim 150 is particularly powerful, and I like using either the Carlebach or Lewandowski tune. I’ve even heard of people using the tune “Old hundredth” for Mizmor leTodah.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.