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Is it wrong to daven at a fast minyan? How can certain minyanim justify davening at the speed of light?
In general, if you are not keeping up with the minyan is it considered as if you are even davening with the minyan? If you don’t start shemone esre with the minyan is it akin to davening byichidus? At what point is it considered that you aren’t davening with the minyan?
If you come LATE to a minyan, is it considered that you are davening with a minyan? How late can you arrive at a minyan and it is still considered to be davening with the minyan?
1- We are not here to judge other people. Just be dan lkaf zchus that its appropriate for those people who daven at those minyanim at their current level of observance.
2- If you dont daven shmone esrei with the tzibbur you miss the value of tefilla betzibbur. I once heard that if you dont start while the tzibbur is still within the first three brochos you already lost tefilla betzibbur, but I dont know the source for it.
3- See #2 above. Davening with a minyan generally refers to shmone esre. There is a whole siman in shulchan aruch on which parts on pesukei dizimra can be skipped to ensure you start shmone esrei with the tzibbur.
Fast Minyanim are usually for people who work and must go to work at a certain time
yungerman1: If I am up to the tzibbur by Shma, but said Shma too slow and only got to S”E after the tzibbur, I might as well as have davened at home??
Shlishi: The Be’ur Halacha I believe discusses something similar to that. And R’ Moshe says that as long as someone who started with the Tzibbur is still Davening Shmoneh Esrei when you start then you are okay.
Sam: Clarify that please? I’m okay if I start S”E before the tzibur finishes S”E? (And does that include the Sh”atz’s repetition?) And does that “loophole” (bad word, I know) only apply if I started with the tzibur, or does it also work if I came late but caught up to S”E while the tzibur is still saying S”E?
shlishi- First of all there is still an advantage of davening with a tzibbur present. Secondly, as Sam2 pointed out, the Halacha is that if you start with the tzibbur and they are going to fast for you then you do not need to skip and you could continue to daven at your own pace.
I am not sure about the Shatz. R’ Moshe would seem to say that as long as you start before the Tzibbor finishes then you are okay. I asked the same Shaila also because I used to take an incredibly long time to say K’rias Sh’ma. I was told that as long as I was at Sh’ma on time and I davened at my pace while the Tzibbor passed me then I was completely fine.
So you must start Krias Shma with the tzibur, in order for it to count that you davened with a minyan, and start S”E while the tzibur is still saying S”E. Gotcha.
Actually, the P’sak I was given didn’t mention the starting S”E while the Tzibbur is still saying S”E and I didn’t think to ask. But yes, it would seem to be much safer that way.
Can we please put some numbers down? How fast are we talking about?
Brachos till Hoidu?
Hoidu till Borchu?
Borchu till the start of SE?
SE?
Chazarahs ha’Shatz?
Tachnun till Olainu?
Faster than you can keep pace with.
Davening with the shatz counts for something only if you daven mila bimilah with him (and the tzibbur’s amen is theoretically on your bracha as well).
No, really. How fast?
My minyan:
Brachos till Hoidu? 4 minutes, including korbanot
Hoidu till Borchu? 7 to 8 minutes, depending on who’s davening
Borchu till the start of SE? 4 minutes
SE? I think 5 to 6 minutes, I don’t usually look at the clock when we start
Chazarahs ha’Shatz? quick, but I don’t know off hand; perhaps 5 minutes including duchening
Tachnun till Olainu? short tachanun to the end of ein Kaylokaynu is about 6 minutes, I think; it may be a bit shorter
All in all, a non-laining day with tachunun is about 34-37 minutes, depending on the chazan.
Wow, how is it possible to keep up??
Its a little quick, but doable. I have seen this so many times. Those who come late, or come on time and shmooze first complain that davening is too fast. If you come on time, put your talis and tefillin on and start davening you may actually see that you do have time to daven more than just baruch sheamar, ashrei, and yishtabach.
the shayla is is nit worse when you get stuck in the rebbes minyan in a shtiebel and shacharis takes an hour an a half
once was talking to chassidish guy and he davened really fast. told me he was just used to it so thats why he could do it. doesnt make sense to me though. how can you “learn” and be trained to daven fast.
gezunheit r u my husband lol thats all im hearing the last couple of days is there davening at the speed of lighting there is no way anyone can keep up there is no way that the person davening in fron of the umid is say everyword….
Whoa, MameshTakeh, that IS fast. Our place is only 1-2 minutes slower on most the the slots, but from Tachnun till Ulainu, you guys leave us in the gate.
On a standard day, we need 45 minutes, cover to cover
And what’s with the korbAnoT? With a yiddish screen name, korbOnoS is more up your alley.
There is no way to properly daven at those breakneck speeds.
I’ve literally heard people enunciate the words quicker than I can THINK them!
That may be, but for the majority of people to chap-up Shachris in a minyan of 34-37 minutes? The vast majority are skipping, mumbling, swallowing, and chewing up the words.
And what’s with the korbAnoT? With a yiddish screen name, korbOnoS is more up your alley.
Mamashtakah was something we used to say all the time as kids. My screen name was almost “Shtotty,” which we also used to say all the time. KorbonoT is because I’m in Israel. I say it like that all the time now, it’s gotten to be a habit.
And for those who say my numbers are too quick, I’ve been to faster minyanim than mine. I know I was at one that finished inside of 30 minutes.
“KorbonoT is because I’m in Israel.”
That explains a quicker minyan; the davening is in their native language!
I had to catch a flight once, and I davened at a “minyan” which took 16 minutes. One-six. For Shacharis. Including brochos. SE was 1.5 minutes, Chazora was 2 I think. I was clued in before hand, so we arrived 25 minutes early and just caught them at SE to (hopefully…!) be yotze tefillah betzibbur. Never again bl’n unless it’s a sha’as hadchak.
That explains a quicker minyan; the davening is in their native language!
We’ve been here 4+ years, B”H, and you know, it’s amazing how much faster I daven than I used to. It’s not something conscious, just something I picked up from being in that environment.
My regular Shabbat minyan is about 90 minutes – start at 7:30, end around 9 or so, depending on the length of the parsha. There’s no drasha, no mee she’bayrachs. (Occasionally the Rav will come in and speak, but only about 4 minutes.) I have no problems keeping up, and I’m quite used to it now.
I went back to the states for a bar-mitzvah about a year and a half ago. The davening went from 9 to 12, and it was painful to sit through all the extra stuff. Mee shebayrachs that lasted 5 minutes apiece. A 30 minute drasha. The family asked me to daven P’sukei D’zimra; I made an effort to daven slowly. The gabbi told me to slow down, I was still davening too fast.
Is the day so short that being in shul an extra half hour, on Shabbos no less, will interfere with ones schedule?
Was it metrodriver or baalhabooze who said they like puns? Cos on Yom Kippur I make a point of only davening at a fast minyan. It’s the halacha. We fast all day.
“…who said they like puns?”
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/good-jokes/page/21#post-307694
For all of you that don’t have a problem with fast davening because that’s what working folk need, do you mean to say that you feel that getting to work on time is more benficial to your Parnossah than pouring out your heart slowly with extra Kavannah to Hashem?
do you mean to say that you feel that getting to work on time is more benficial to your Parnossah than pouring out your heart slowly with extra Kavannah to Hashem?
Constantly getting to work late tends to grate on the bosses nerves, so getting to work late is detrimental to keeping one’s parnassa.
Is the day so short that being in shul an extra half hour, on Shabbos no less, will interfere with ones schedule?
I come home, make kiddish, and take a nap in the morning before lunch.
The Shabbos nap is preferable to a more kavanadik davening on Shabbos? The Shabbos schedule is too busy to accommodate both a slow davening and a nap?
Where exactly would you have me go for a slower davening? What makes you think on a yishuv with 5 shules that anyone is davening slower? The teimani shule? That’s a little out of my league. It’s not like I’m walking around Brooklyn and there are 10 shules on every block.
Nothing longer than a 90 minute Shabbos morning davening? Hmm.
In order to be considered tefillah b’tzibbur, there must be ten mispalelim, or possibly six. If people aren’t saying the words clearly, then they’re not saying the words. (I can say “Bruchtanoy mogavrom” whenever I want, and I won’t be over on beracha levatala. And I can certainly say “lumlumlumlumlumlumlum.”) If they’re not saying the words, then they are not mispalelim. Therefore, it’s not really a tzibbur, so they can’t do devarim shebikedusha. But it’s not so bad, because they’re not saying kaddish anyway. (Skal Skashermaba. Amen……….Heishmerbalmaya)
We recently had one of our shule members become an avel. He davened shacharit for the amud at our minyan, and he’s actually a slow davener. (He took 45 minutes on non-leyning days.) The gabbi took him aside and politely asked him to speed up a bit. He got it down to about 38 minutes and made those who have to leave for work much happier.
I went back to the states for a bar-mitzvah about a year and a half ago. The davening went from 9 to 12, and it was painful to sit through all the extra stuff. Mee shebayrachs that lasted 5 minutes apiece. A 30 minute drasha.
Is the day so short that being in shul an extra half hour, on Shabbos no less, will interfere with ones schedule?
I have news for you:- A Resounding Yes!! People who sit at these “never ending Minyanim” on Shabbos morning:- 1) Most of them end up eating before Shul, or if they don’t eat, then feeling so weak, and not eating before Chatzos when on EST; 2) Often will miss Zeman Krias Shema, and many people not aware to say Shema before going to Shul. 3) Most of them don’t end up eating Seudo Shelishis, not even a snack for Seudo Shelishis; Most of these shoules that go from 9-12, have a massive Kiddush afterwards, where people are so hungry that they stuff themselves, but since no Challah nor Matzo, so doesn’t count as a Shabbos meal, since cannot eat Seudo Shelishis before 2nd meal, and 2nd meal there is no way to fulfill it without bread.
Furthermore, the extra time is Mishebeirach’s & Chazzonus & maybe also many Hosafos, but not a slower Silent Amidoh nor a slower Pesukei d’Zimro. & most of them won’t remember the rabbi’s speech from an endless Shabbos morning.
B’H I attend an early Hashkomo, eat at a normal hour in the morning after davening with Motzi, and have Seudo Shelishis early afternoon, and am even able to have apetite for Melave Malka, and spend the morning with my Seforim & children, and everyone loves the arrangement we have.
As for weekdays:- If a man hasn’t arrived at least 5 minutes before commencement time, by definition, he has arrived late. Being on time, is defined as being ready with your Tallis & Tefillin on, so you can actually begin the Davening as soon as the Chazzan begins services. Preferably, if one has already recited Birkas haTorah & maybe also the 15 Berochos which the Chazzan then says aloud, then at least there is some chance of keeping up with the Chazzan.
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