Daven With A Hat BeYichidus or Without it with a Minyan

oomis, you missed his point. Your “opinion” on a halachic matter is of zero value. There is nothing to be embarrased about. Both notpashut and my own “opinion” on a halachic matter is also worthless.

Is Oomis following a valid psak? Yes. So there is nothing wrong with stating her opinion. We all do it in every thread. If we didn’t, it would just be a list of:

Source A

Rabbi A

Source B

Rabbi B

etc.

And yes, I value Oomis’ opinion because from what I’ve seen so far, she is smart, stable and has opinions that fall in line with halacha.

Oomis, I feel your pain. You must understand that it is not a reflection on you. Time and time again on this board when certain kannaim come out of the woodwork on a particular issue, they say very hurtful and disparaging remarks to others. I hope they will apologize and change their ways. As you pointed out, embarrassing someone in public is far worse than never wearing a hat once in one’s entire life. (Unless someone can show me where it says that one who doesn’t wear a hat has no chelek in olam haba like it does say about one who is malbin pnei chavero. Look, I could be missing a very important chazal.)

I addressed this issue many months ago in various coffee room threads.

After thinking about it, I have come to the conclusion that two psychological factors cause this behavior.

1) These kannaim worship a very angry G-d. One who created the world and gave the Torah with so many details davka designed to trip up people so he can give himself the supreme pleasure of punishing them in all kinds of sadistic ways. (In truth the world was created so G-d could give of his goodness to people, just like we try to do to our children. Ratzah HKBH lzakos es yisroel, lfichach hirbeh lahem Torah umitzvos. Also, as Hillel said, the entire Torah in a nutshell is to treat one’s fellow man kindly.)

2) These kannaim imagine that they have a very unique and high place within this angry G-d’s hierarchy, and they are self-appointed ministers to dispense this angry G-d’s wrath, possibly by virtue of their imagined high-levels of learning. (Here again, they forget a chazal which all the rest of us simple Jews say every week, Talmidei chachamim marbim shalom baolam.)

I and others here have been the target many times of this behavior (including the dedication of an entire thread in our honor about pro-freikeit posters here on YW), but once you realize what generates this behavior, it is rather comical, and you won’t feel as bad as you do now.

In addition, the silliest thing of all, is that those same commentors who accused you of posting without sources, were davka the ones who said the whole issue is “Self-intuitive”, and who seconded that notion, i.e., based merely on their own feelings without any halachic backing.

What is even more interesting is that the Mechaber at first writes that there is an opinion that one should not daven bareheaded, and that there is an opinion that one should not go into a shul bareheaded. That seems to imply that there are other opinions that hold one could theoretically daven or go into a shul totally bareheaded (in theory). He then says that a straw yarmulka is sufficient. The Mishna Berurah’s chumra appears to be based on the styles of his times which were different than in the Mechaber’s times.

One last thought, if Reb Chaim Kanievsky did say one should miss minyan, I would expect a teshuvah with at least six paragraphs.

1) Showing why hat outweighs tefilah betzibbur.

2) Showing why hat outweighs kedushah.

3) Showing why hat outweighs kaddishim.

4) Showing why hat outweighs borchu.

5) Showing why hat outweighs krias hatorah.

6) Even if we prove the above five things individually, we must still prove that hat outweighs the aggregate sum of all of them together.

If such a six-paragraph teshuvah exists I will (figuratively) eat my hat.

areivimzehlazeh:

Thank you.

i guess b, c, and d. i pretty much understand the words.

moish – nope. That’s not what our Chazal teach us. It is better to visit the throne room.

There is a related story with the Chofetz Chaim. A man came and bought all of his seforim, except for one – the sefer on Shmiras Halashon. The Chofetz Chaim asked him why he didn’t buy that one. The man replied that he had absolutely no chance of keeping even the smallest measure of what is in that sefer. The Chofetz Chaim replied that if he learns the entire sefer, and he is completely unaffected, but at the end of it he thinks for a second “Oy!”, it was worth it.

Another story (though I forget the Rebbe in the story, I’m sure someone later will add the name):

A certain Rebbe saw a man at the tisch eating heartily. But before every bite (or plateful, whatever) he would call out “Likovod Shabbos!”. The Rebbe thought to himself, what a faker. He’s eating Likovod der boich (stomach)! In his later years, the Rebbe had a thought of regret. He said imagine after I die, Hashem asks me if everything I ate on Shabbos was Likovod Shabbos. What will I say? No, but at least I wasn’t a FAKER like that guy! That’s not going to win any points.

Be a faker! Be a hypocrite! It’s better than being less that one!

On a more mundane note, a quote which you probably will not like is “Do, and you shall be”.

yossiea – nice answer.

“If such a six-paragraph teshuvah exists I will (figuratively) eat my hat.”

Pashuteh Yid – PLEASE, DON’T DO THAT!!!!!!! Then you won’t be able to daven in shul with the kanaim (JK!)

I thank you very much for your sensitivity to my feelings, but I want to assure you that I long since learned to let insults fall off me. The person who feels the need to make his point, not in a derech eretzdig way, but rather in a way designed to be especially derogatory and embarrassing to another person, is someone who may believe he knows know Mishnah Berurah, but definitely knows ZIP about mitzvos bein adam l’chavero.

And as I said before, I wonder what R’ Chaim Kanievsky would think of such a yid’s imprudent and intentionally rude remarks.

I realize that with the diversity on this blog, there are all types of emotions and religious fervor, or lack therof, that may abound. Still, let’s ask ourselves if what Hashem really wants is to see Jews who flamebait each other, just because they CAN, in the very erroneous belief that they are doing something noble for kovod haTorah? Or are they actually doing something very harmful, not only to those whom they intentionally treat with a lack of good middos, but even worse, to themsdelves? Every time we do an action that is clearly not L’shem Shamayim, but merely because we want to push someone’s buttons and show them up, or prove we are right and they are wrong (when it really is not so glatt in this particular case), it causes harm to the neshama of the person who does it.Instead of elevating oneself, it has chalilah the opposite effect.

There are some really terrific, articulate, witty, and nice people who post here (you, among them). And even when I personally do not agree with someone’s post, mikall melamdei hiskalti. If nothing else, I learn exactly what is the improper way to respond to someone with whom I might disagree.

ames,

thanks but in this case it makes sense that it took you more paragraphs to write it than it took me – you said it sooo much better than I did. But I know what you mean, if Moish’s pet peeves thread had been allowed to stay open, I may have posted that mine is when I write a 10 paragraph manifesto and then someone else makes the same point even more clearly and does it in 2 sentences. ARGH!

I think Hashem has proven He doesn’t want the Mets to win LOL.

Moish, I struggle with organized prayer a lot. I find saying someone else’s words really does not convey anything. I say certain things as they are written and then ad lib most of my tefilot. Its much more meaningful when I do. Be careful of when you do it though because there are places during davening that you are not allowed to interupt. I am not an expert on it though – I usually say my tefilot seperate from organized ones. Its important to have an open communication with Hashem.

Pashuteh,

1)”Time and time again on this board when certain kannaim come out of the woodwork”

I find it fascinating that you feel that someone who follows the rulings of the Poskim instead of relying on what “he (or she) thinks” is right is a “kanoi”.

2)”These kannaim worship a very angry G-d. One who created the world and gave the Torah with so many details davka designed to trip up people so he can give himself the supreme pleasure of punishing them in all kinds of sadistic ways.”

Hashem is not trying to “trip up” anybody, nor are myself or any others. The issues arise when someone innocently brings up a halachic point that is INCONVENIENT & suddenly all the “moderates” come out of the woodwork & start reffering to “kannoim” & “chumros”. Basically, any halacha they are not interested in keeping needs a “source” (even though a bunch of people say they saw it inside. BTW the sefer is nikiyos v’kavod b’tfilla pg. 90 footnote 5 & pg. 182 Q. 112 – now you’re happy?) & certainly there are “other opinions”.

3)”I and others here have been the target many times of this behavior”

Unlike yhose who stick up for the halacha who are always treated with the utmost respect.

4)”In addition, the silliest thing of all, is that those same commentors who accused you of posting without sources, were davka the ones who said the whole issue is “Self-intuitive”, and who seconded that notion, i.e., based merely on their own feelings without any halachic backing.”

A)The self intuitive comment was made sarcastically toward an earlier poster for those who didn’t notice.

B)Halachic backing had already been provided.

5)”The Mishna Berurah’s chumra appears to be based on the styles of his times which were different than in the Mechaber’s times.”

For those who didn’t notice R’ Elyasiv & R’Shlomo Zalman hold that one should not miss tefilla b’tzibbur to wear a hat as opposed to R’ Chaim – Clearly, all three are of the opinion that “The Mishna Berurah’s chumra” still applies today.

Mind you,the big “maikel”, the Tzitz Eliezer (brought in ishei yisroel for those who need a “source”) who entertains the idea that “efsher” (his word) nowadays a hat is not required, states that even if this is so, one would be obligated a “special” yarmulka to be used just for davening.

6)”One last thought, if Reb Chaim Kanievsky did say one should miss minyan, I would expect a teshuvah with at least six paragraphs…..If such a six-paragraph teshuvah exists I will (figuratively) eat my hat.

Bli”n I’ll let R’ Chaim know that pushetah yid from the YWN CR thought of six brilliant, ingenious taynas on his psak from his recliner which R’ Chaim was obviously to dumb to think of on his own & I’m sure after I let him know he’ll issue a public retraction in the Yated.

7)”embarrassing someone in public is far worse than never wearing a hat once in one’s entire life.”

When someone acts like a clown in public they should not be offended when people laugh at them.

SJSinNYC, that’s why you have to keep davening. You can’t give up. That’s how davening is.

(The same can be said for lots of things we daven for, which is why you still have to daven, even if it didn’t happen yet in X years. That’s not neccesarily the point of davening.)

Ames, I have been re-reading your posts here, and I really hope you are in some type of kiruv work, because you have a way of expressing the nitty-gritty in a way that I think can be very effective in reaching out. Yasher koach.

Your opinion on this issue is worth as much as R’ Chaim’s opinion on how to best create a scrumptious mushroom quiche.

Hey! I thought the gedolim were experts on everything in life. 🙂

The Wolf

gavra,

Never mind, now I get it.

gavra,

BTW, I’m not so sure that your “tzushtell” to that Mishna is on target.

oomis, you mean that was kiruv? i’m out of here! just kidding i asked for it so i guess i got it.

Moish: I reallyyy feel bad for u n I WISH I can help u!!

moish – and you gave a dvar torah! You’re an ALL STAR!

Bemused, you ask a valid question, and I have tried to address this on other threads. I normally never give mussar or tochacha to anybody. However, when somebody starts with another person and clearly hurts their feelings, I have no choice. In practically every case here (although not necessarily on other boards), somebody will offer an innocent opinion on some topic, and kannaim will come down and take the person to town.

You practically never see uncivilized behavior here initiated by the more moderate or even left-leaning posters, except when they are first personally attacked. Kannaim constantly overreact to posts that they do not agree with and launch these personal attacks, even though nobody has actually attacked them, just expressed an opinion.

The pattern occurs over and over. Because of a din of rodef, I need to soothe the one who has been attacked, and the only way to do that is to tell them that they have been wronged, although it is also effectively attacking the rodef, as you pointed out.

There are some kannaim here who are careful with bein odom lachaveiro, however, the majority are not. Just like in EY where they throw acid and beat people on buses. It is an entire mindset that must be changed. That is why I rail against it constantly.

I understand the mindset, as I used to be a bigger kannai than these people. But at one point I realized that almost every time I ever got angry or into some kind of major fight with anybody, it was because I thought I was doing some kind of big mitzvah or because of some religious issue. I began to think that this is not what the Torah is all about, and is a perversion. The Torah is only about shalom. The RBSH is an Av Harachaman, and hates this fighting in his name. While there are numerous rayos to this, one of the most obvious is the gemara in Sotah which says that He would rather have His name erased, if it can make shalom between a man and his wife. The meaning is that bein odom lamakom is subordinate to bein odom lachaveiro. We also see this by Avraham where gedolah hachnasas orchim yoser meikabalas pnei hashechinah. Imagine one is in the middle of speaking to Hashem and guests ring the doorbell. You could imagine a whole bunch of kannaim screaming APIKORUS, you interrupt the aibershter for some idol worshipping yo-yo at the door. How dare you!

But in truth the main thing the Aiberhster wants from us is to be menschen to each other. When we scream at each other for his sake, we totally destroy the whole reason for the Torah. It is all about us, it is not about some arrogant, angry G-d who we must constantly give his due praise or he gets furious. Everything he created is for us. Everything he told us to do is for us, so we make the maximum of ourselves, and have the happiest and most fulfilling lives.

There is much more to say, but another time.

dd – That comment was made by him rhetorically, with the underlying point being no one is embarrassing anyone in public – and that is a false comparison.

Also see Bemused very good point, subsequent to your comment. Somehow tough, I think bemused is giving the commentor he addressed too much benefit of the doubt.

Pashuteh Yid

Your posts on this thread are some of the most articulate, pointed, and yet restrained that I’ve seen yet. If everyone wrote as well as you, there’d be no more flaming (and more interesting discussions). I missed your posts, and I’m glad you’re back.

no, ames. it makes me feel like i always do when i daven – i did it because i wanted to. that’s all.

1) i don’t do homework and i love showering. my point is, if i can help it i don’t do what i don’t want to. yes, i WANT to stand on line for ice cream. i don’t WANT to go to school so whether or not i have to, i don’t.

2) i’m skipping cuz you didn’t really answer.

3) don’t be stupid. whether or not i’ve ever tried drug i know it’s stupid and i would never give my kid money for drugs. i might handcuff him too. don’t lie – you would never make it that easy for your kid to buy drugs. if he gets a job and does it by himself you don’t have much control but that’s a little better. i love my parent and i NEVER tried asking my dad for money for drugs. i just wouldn’t do that to him (or myself)

4) you must be on something because i’ve never had God speak to me!

5) WHAT did she say it was????????? 🙂

and WHY do you always have and answer for everything?

Pashuteh Yid:

You wrote that “I used to be a bigger kannai than these people.”

What were you (previously) a kanoi about? What is an example (or two) of a kanoish thing you actually did?

(For the record, and to be intellectually honest, I disagree with all your expressed views in this thread.)

why do i feel like a little kid who ate all of his cereal? everyone’s so “proud” of me.