Daven With A Hat BeYichidus or Without it with a Minyan

Pashuteh Yid-

Thanks for typing out exactly what I was about to post. (Why DO we waste our time on this site?)

I cannot believe Will Hill agreed with me (and seemed to think I had no doubt that wearing a hat is more important than tefilah b’tzibur) when I said it is a sad commentary on the state of frumkeit when such a question is posed.

It truly IS sad that people believe wearing a (black) hat equals being frum, and (ad kidai kach) that one should daven beyichiydus if a hat is not available.

I’ve read many krum posts here, but this takes the cake.

I think the yeshivos are responsible for this. They teach boys NOT to think. Each and every thing must be presented to a Rav or a Rebbe, no matter how simple.

This results in mass production of ignorant men, who if presented with a situation where there is no one around to ask a shayla of, are completely lost.

Very sad………….

areivimzehlazeh:

Huh? Was it the “everyone should learn mussar” post?

i’m sorry, but that’s a little sick. you have to PRETEND you’re not davening? (would they even let me into the bais medrash without a hat?)

davening is a personal thing. how could they tell you how to dress? if i show up to shul in jeans and a t-shirt i should be able to join a minyan like a regular guy.

Joseph, thank you for the link! I missed a fun conversation!

it’s a matter as well of protocol, and convention

Protocol and convention change based on the minhag hamakom, correct?

you cant stand before the Ribbono Shel Olam in bluejeans, sandals, a t-shirt and baseball cap the same way you stand before him in a dark suit white shirt tie, and formal hat, especially as it conforms to the conventions of the local Yeshiva community {because of how YOU feel}, the Yiddin who understand the need to set ourselves apart from the nations, externally as well as internally, as is expressed throughout Tanach and Oral Law.

someone maybe isnt on that madrega, fine, but dont say that is not the madrega we should all aspire to.

I disagree that the clothing you wear makes for a better or worse davening. I understand that we try to dress better for kavod Hashem, but I don’t think the clothing makes the tefila any better. You can be dressed to the nines and still have zero kavana, or dressed in jeans and daven very well.

Now we should all be striving to get closer to Hashem in ALL aspects of our lives. But I disagree that the yeshivish dress code is the only way to go.

Pashuteh Yid (a voice of reason, as usual) asked: “Are you all telling me that the hesder boys who do not wear hats are bad Jews?”

The hesder boys are amazing in their mesiras nefesh. They learn Torah and risk their lives to protect us. Just thinking about them makes me realize how shallow it is when some people judge others based on hats.

Is this topic for real? Obviously its allowed bc not everyone wears a hat!!! Get real.

” if i show up to shul in jeans and a t-shirt i should be able to join a minyan like a regular guy. “

Though I totally do not think that mode of dress is the BEST way to show up in Shul, I had this experience with my son who tried very hard never to miss a minyan. He was going from a camp job and did not have the time to change, or he would have missed the minyan which was an open to the public daily minyan at a local Yeshivah. He was in jeans and a casual shirt, and when he came into the shul was immediastely asked to leave by someone choshuv in the Yeshivah. Had he not been my son and were he not firmly committed to his Yiddishkeit, this humiliating action could have been the straw that broke the camel’s back in turning him off the derech. And the person responsible would have been smug in his not allowing “someone like that” inside HIS shul. Mind you, I had a long talk with him about the inadvisability of going into shul straight from camp before having a chance to change, but I commended him for making the minyan a priority, no matter what.

asdfghjkl – i was actually reading it the whole time and not posting because i’m not much of a davener. i mean i daven sometimes when i feel like it, but i hardly ever make minyan and i think i lost my hat close to two years ago. so this whole thread really doesn’t apply to me.

rav elyashiv paskened [and his gabbai told me b`pheirush] only a ben-torah who will not walk in the street without a hat and jacket is permitted to miss tefillah btzibur otherwise you must daven.

SJS, I believe that was Joseph’s question.

asdfghjkl – that’s sweet of you. why in the world would you know about my davening patterns?

Thank you notpashut.

ames – I daven with my hair uncovered, without a hat and b’yichidus. What does that make me?

Moish: ur not a davening person, that’s so sad!! I’m being so serious, praying isn’t for Hashem of for enyone elses benifit, its for urself!! Ur day is much better, ur life is much better, why wouldn’t u want to pray?? (Sorry I say pray, not daven) after your don’t praying u have such a satisfaction!! Am I the only one who thinks this way?

ames said she is married. Curious, that makes you a single (eligible) frum girl.

i do daven when i feel like it. isn’t that what davening is? when you feel the need you do it. otherwise i feel like it’s a waste of time.

Curious – perhaps ames is married.

“Notpashut, I do not mean to disparage your obviously deeply-felt words, but I really cannot imagine anyone thinking that R’ Kanievsky could possibly be described by such words. But I still do not think that it is better to daven by oneself i.e., at home in a hat, than to daven in a minyan without a hat.”

I’m saying this in the nicest, gentlest way that I can.

We know what R’ Elyashiv holds & we know what R’ Chaim holds, so who cares what you hold?

Thank you for beautifully proving my point.

Joseph,

Thank YOU

Jphone,

I’ve seen it in numerous seforim, one of them is hilchos netilas yadayim v’nikius b’tfilla

If you’re female, you can daven with your hair uncovered, even if you’re married, as long as no males are present. It’s not erva for you, it’s erva for men.

moish: i wasn’t refering to your davening patterns earlir, but on the hat issue actually!!! moish davening is something you gatta do daily, not just when ya fell like it buddy!!! at least try for shachris!!!

“We know what R’ Elyashiv holds & we know what R’ Chaim holds, so who cares what you hold?”

Clearly YOU don’t. That is your prerogative. Let me ask you, what does R’ Chaim hold on embarrassing people in public? Which Mishnah in the Mishnah Berurah discusses this?

Yossiea, I know that women can daven without their hair being covered as long as no men are present (if the women are married), although I thought the covering was for married women in the presence of their husband who is making a bracha. Irrespective of that, so why do you think girls do not have to cover their own hair with at least a hat when davening, but boys do (according to those who have referenced the Mishnah Berurah and R’ Chaim) when they are already wearing a yarmulke? Why does one need NO covering (even in Shul), and the other according to some, requires TWO?

oomis, you missed his point. Your “opinion” on a halachic matter is of zero value. There is nothing to be embarrased about. Both notpashut and my own “opinion” on a halachic matter is also worthless.

you can’t create kavana. it’s either there or it’s not.

and why am i talking about this online to strangers? i must be crazy.

moish01; we’re not strangers, we’re friends!!! ames has some great points, read what she said!!!!

Of course u can create kavana!!