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Think BIG: I collect photos of gedolim in their youth and of candid photos of gedolim in a relaxed atmosphere amid their talmidim. You can see many of these on line, such as, Rav Hutner; Rav Shneiur Kotler; Rav Berenbaum; Rav Steinmann; The Alter of Slabodka; Rav Boruch Ber; etc. Did you know that Rav Ruderman wore a grey kapata and Homburg hat in the summer? By the way, I have yet to see these greats or their talmidim wearing their tzizus out so that they are visible.
UJM: There are Poskim to rely upon who hold that a tallis in the morning is the special outer levush for t’fila rather than a jacket. So don’t go bonkers about this. There are plenty of other things you can get riled up about, like people who waste their time posting on the internet and complaining when they should be learning.
will hill, are u trying to say only those w/ jackets under their tallesim have proper decorum when davening?
no jacket automatically means bad?
cherrybim: PLEASE name me which “poisek” you refer to that holds no jacket is necessary with a talis. If there are several as you say, surely you’ll have no trouble identifying one.
ses: I too would agree that lack of a jacket is a lack of decorum in shul.
Cherrybim, I thought you were saying in your other post that we should learn from how they dressed, very proper) that we should too. Now youre saying the issue is style?
Well the yeshivish style is black and white now, whats the problem?
also, about the tzitzis out, i read in the biography of reb Elya lopian that it was he who initiated the wearing of the tzitzis out, like they do in yeshivas. so it is a fairly new “style”.
At maariv tonight, there were some men wearing a jacket, hat and tie. These were mostly the men who wear a jacket and tie to work all day. The added garment fr tefillah, probably yheir hat. If they wear their hat to work too? I’m not so sure.
There were men wearing a jacket and tie, but no hat. There were those wearing a jacket no tie, no hat. There were some wearing a jacket and hat, but had their shirts (button down) untucked. Others had their shirts neatly tucked in and wore no, hat or jacket.
Who davened a better and more meaningful tefilla? That is for hashem to determine, not us. To all those who feel that those who dont wear a hat and/or a jacket are davening while improperly dressed, then dont dress that way. Stop the silly postings about “against halacha”, “they are wrong” and “it is a terrible thing”.
It should be noted that there are poskim who write that because it is the “minhag” of certain non jews to REMOVE their hats when entering their places of worship, yidden should bidavka wear their hats, especially because the haskallah started the same practice. Not all yidden lived in Catholic countries or lived among maskilim who adopted this practice, hence the “widespread” custom of wearing hats is nowhere near universal. The shulchan aruch is clear about the guidelines for dress while davening. No specific article of clothing is listed as a requirement. Not a hat, not a jacket , not a spudik or a kapata, not even a turban or caftan.
Zalman, which posek says a jacket is necessary, with or without a tallis. In south america is is considered “respectful” in just shirtsleevs, because the hot weather does not lend itself to wearing a suit. The halacha is clear about dressing the way one would dress when meeting someone important. That is a guideline. It is different in different times and places.
When I was in yeshiva my rebbe explained this halacha in terms we would understand. You should treat approaching hashem with your bakashos the same way you would the father of a girlyou are meeting for a shidduch. You should dress the same way too. Lose the arrogance and dress bakovodik.
As long as you have good Jibbets (those cute little plastic things to accessorize your crocs with) I think it’s fine. Maybe they have BMG logo (the kesser) Jibbets.
Zalman: In case you haven’t noticed there is no halacha necessitating the wearing of a hat and jacket during davening. It is a maila to wear a jacket and hat during sh’mone esrei, the amida, altz kavode before a melech. There is very little else brought down in the s’farim in this regard and for good reason.
I’ve spoken to Rabbonim about this issue and they’ve said that it is plausible to say that just like a tallis is worn instead of a hat for shachris, so to can it be worn instead of a jacket for shachris. Again, they reiterated that “hat and jacket” was a maila, not halacha.
I have personally attended halacha shiurim for many years given by two leading poskim in Flatbush and when this topic was covered in the Mishna B’rura, the above observations were also acknowledged as being held.
Also, if what you are saying is halacha, written in stone, where are the rules in the Shulchan Aruch? We would (and should) not be having this discussion. Is there a special set of rules for those who live in hot climates where jackets are not the minhag to wear during davening? What about before jackets were in existence. Were people not yotze davening?
I know that you would be thrilled to find out that a new halacha seifer (three volumes, over 500 pages each volume) is to be available soon. The first volume deals with hilchos jacket and the next two with hilchos hat.
jphone asked “Zalman, which posek says a jacket is necessary, with or without a tallis.”
jphone – Mishna Berura. Read the mare mekomos mentioned earlier in this thread.
Think Big,
the point I was making concerning style is that the Rosh Yeshivas wanted to make certain that people would not look down on Yeshiva bochrim because of how they dressed. They needed to be dressed to the “GM” style of the day. I remember it was the same way when I was in Yeshiva, the Rosh Yeshiva having learned in Slabodka under the “Alter”.
By “tzitzis out”, I’m talking about hanging out below the jacket. Today it’s “the longer, the holier”.
to thing big page 6 .see hilchos tztzis 24 seuf 1 mechaber ‘v’nochon lelovsho ‘AL HAMALBUSHIM’.and the mechaber is talking about the whole begaed not just the fringes…now if you mean the fringes too (new minhag) so what the purpose of tztites ‘urisem oiso uzchatem…..’
Cherrybim: i understood your point. Please note that the different yeshivos in Pre-war Europe had different emphasis. Slobadka had that emphasis, Novarodik had a different (some would say almost opposite) emphasis. Be that as it may, I agree that a yeshiva bochur should dress in a self-respecting fashion,ie clothing should fit properly, no stains or wrinkles,etc. for they are representing Torah. As far as styles go, the black and white outfit of the typical yeshiva bochur actually looks very classy (just need a tie to go with it.)Similar to a businessman. They certainly look more bachovodik than your average teenage guy in his ripped jeans and oversized t-shirt. Is that the style you are advocating? (I know your not, just trying to point out that style today means nothing if we are comparing ourselves to the goyish concept of style. In europe, a stylish guy dressed in a nice suit and tie. Not here, not anymore.)
Jent: Yes I meant the fringes out was reportedly initiated by R’ Lopian. I don’t know why it wasn’t “in style” until then, and i can’t answer what the purpose of “ure’isem ” would be then. But he obviously felt that this was a better way to fulfill ure’isem.
As a side note, I remember reading a tribute to one of the great Sefardi leaders/Roshei Yeshiva who passed away in recent years. It said that some of the Sefardi Bochurim began to wear their tzitzis tucked out like the Ashkenazim and he dissuaded them, saying that it was never their minhag over the years, and the Sefardi heritage is rich enough without having to take from the Ashkenazim. So, based on this story, there obviously is a “purpose” to wearing tzitzis even if the fringes cannot be seen,( as they did before R’Lopian).
Joseph. You are wrong. The MB does not pasken “one must wear a jacket for davening”. The Rambam lists things that invalidate tefilla. An uncovered head is one of them. He wasnt reffering to a hat. BTW the Rambam didnt own a hat. Neither did the Ben Ish Chai. Rav Saadiah Gaon. They lived in an area where nice silk turbans were the norm. I dont see sefardim coming to shul with turbans. Are they all violating a halacha? Please reread the mishne berura.
As discussed here previously, the Mishna Berura is quite clear that a Jacket is REQUIRED by davening, talis or no talis. Those here trying to fardrei an excuse why they don’t do what they are supposed to, may justify it in their mind, but certainly have no excuse al pi din AND altz Kavod HaTorah.
Think Big: “i can’t answer what the purpose of “ure’isem ” would be then.”
“Ure’isem” meant that tzitzes should be worn when you can see them which is during the day, not night.
UJN: You continue to show your amaratzus by repeating over, and over, and over, and over again about the fanciful obsession you have concerning jackets and halacha. Get a Rebbe and get it right.
UJM: There is no such Mishne Berura.
Cherrybim, I KNOW what ure’ism means. The point I was trying to make which you didnt understand was that if the tzitzis were worn inside, what would be the point of wearing the tzitzis if ure’ism cannot be fulfilled? I dont know. But there obviously is a point, though perhaps not the most preferred.
Think Big:
I hope I understood your question.
cherrybim – there is no chiddush in wearniog tzitzis out, it’s just that in certain communities, like the yekies for instance, the yidden were forced to rely on certain heterim and kulos altz sakana because of anti-semitism, this is why they didnt wear yarmulkahs when they were working, and it would explain wearing tzitzis inside too.
The only actual mekor for wearing one’s tzitzis inside, as oposed to the seforim which talk about wearing them outside as a basic idea and pshat in oresem(both the idea of wearing them when it is dayime and seeing them are pshatim in tha posuk), is the arizal, who ive heard said that al pi kaballah one should wear it inside – however, most people today who wear them inside do not know this, nor do they know kaballah..the use it as an excuse to not look too different from goyim
ok, between cherrybim and mattisyahu I am clear. I understood that ureisem meant that you should see them and remember the 613 mitzvos, and i knew that the mitzvah is to therefor wear them by day when they can be seen. My question was what was the point if they could not be seen by day if they were inside. Mattisyahu explained that they are two separate things,(ie,two seperate pshatim, that one can fulfill wearing them by day without actually seeing them) so thank you.
Sorry for the mixup.
In any case, Mattisyahu answered the question of what the point of wearing them inside is.
to thing big page 6(your second post)..its the mechaber ,which is the bais yosef, that mentions ‘v’nochon l’halbisho al habgodim’, and sfaredim are the ones who go according to bais yosef and askanazim . follow tha rama, so what you mention about the sfardi rosh hayeshivh, would be suprising. also if you dont mind when we read somewhere this and someplace that,from reading this or that cant pasken sheilos.now dont mean to be sarcastic.if its divrei musser, no problem but halocho cant just bring reyoh from such mekor. now lets say he said this ‘sfardic heritage is rich enough…we dont have to..’it doesnt sound like loshon from a ‘big’ rosh hayeshivah. its not eidele talk , may be we’re wrong.also mir zaen all over sfadi yidden with tzitzes on their shirt, or just the fringes. you know mir davenen in a shule and there is a sfardi chacham. i’ll ask him, and he definately didnt learn in askenazi svivos..
jent, i hear your point, loud and clear, and actually understand everything you wrote.
I wasnt saying that we pasken based on what the sfardi rav said, but I was trying to figure out how it can be that people wear their tzitzis inside and still fulfill ur’isem. I lready got my answer (see above post), but i thought that since this was said over in the name of the sefardi tzaddik, there MUST be a svara that its okay. see the difference?
I hear that its strange being that its the bais yosef who says it. maybe the sfardi chacham in your shul can shed some light. I did not quote him exactly because it was something I read in hamodia more than 7 years ago, so I’m sorry if the loshon doesnt sound Eidel. But the point it expressed stuck in my mind.
In any case, your last point I dont think proves anything, because many frum sefardim took on the levush of the ashkenazim. The black hat, dark kapote…all come from the european style of dress. If you look at the old pictures of sefardi Chachamim, they dont dress that way anymore. (Amnon Yitzchak makes a point of this by dressing in traditional yemenite garb)
CHERRYBIM, alleviate your amaratzus I’ll re-point to you the Mishna Berura that requires a JACKET during davening that has been mentioned previously on this thread:
S’O Orach Chaim Hilchos Tefiloh, siman 91, sk 12 (megulah) [sk 4, mb 12 ?]
Mishnah Berurah 8:4, citing the Ba”ch, requires two head coverings. (Shulchan Aruch O”Ch 282:2)
Please learn it and report back!
To UJM and friends:
Are you too indolent to read the previous posts? All of this and more have been covered and explained already.
Do yourself a favor, learn Mishna B’rura with a posek or rav and you will eventually get to know how to analyze and interpret the Mishna B’rura on your own. It’s hazardous to just read the words and paskin on your own.
By the way, do think a Rav would allow someone to daven without a hat or jacket in his shul if that person was being oiver an aveira by doing so?
Also, to clear the air, I do daven with a hat, and jacket, and tie, and take off my boots, and do not daven with a coat on, and trim my nails every erev shabbos. But far be it for me to think that I or my t’filos are any better than someone who doesn’t.
UJM: The Mishne Berurah you cite does NOT say what you claim it does. Let me rephrase that. If you believe that you MUST wear a hat and a jacket for davening, then I can see where it can be shoe horned into the words of the Mishne Berurah. However, an honest reading/teitch of the Mishna Berurah does not lead me to the conclusion you keep claiming is paskened lihalacha by the Mishne Berurah.
UJM: You are proving that you can read anything you want to into a Mishna Berurah. Nothing more, nothing less.
As repeatedly pointed out and discussed multiple times on this thread, the cited Mishna Berura is very clear that a JACKET is needed when davening in Shul. cherrybim may not like this and try to fardrei Mishna Berura as being “too complex too understand” since it is not to his liking, but it remains what it says in black and white.
What remains is very clear. UJM you are wrong. The MB does NOT say what you claim he does. You may understand the MB to say what you claim, but it is not what he says.
UJM- I’ll bet dollars to donuts that you don’t have a rebbe or rav that you consult with on a regular bases. It’s very obvious that you are your own posek and therefore you make up your own torah.
You said- “cherrybim may not like this and try to fardrei Mishna Berura as being “too complex too understand””
There you go again, making things up. I never said that the Mishna Berura as being “too complex too understand”. I said that you should “learn Mishna B’rura with a posek or rav and you will eventually get to know how to analyze and interpret the Mishna B’rura on your own. It’s hazardous to just read the words and paskin on your own.”
From the looks of it I’m not alone.
By the way, before I stuck my neck out, I did ask a rav and posek concerning the hat/jacket halachic status. I repeated what he said to me. So you and zalman and yes, all the other amaratzim can continue to insist that the hat and jacket is a halacha and not a maila for shmona esrei. It only shows that you can’t be taken seriously for any of your pronouncements because peanut brains just like to hear yourselves talk. A bee g’ret.
I just took a look in the cited Mishna Berura and Shulchan Orach. And what everyone’s been saying (ujm, Zalman, etc.) is correct! It does say that a Yid should wear a jacket by davening!
So why don’t you two bigshots (cherrybim and jphone) OPEN A MISHNA BERURA AND START LEARNING!
I started reviewing the applicable halachos as mentioned in many of the previous posts. I went a little further in the Feldheim Pisgah Hebrew/english Mishna Berurah to chapter 98 entitle “That One Is Reguired To Pray With Application”
below is NOT word for word from the sefer – I tried to capture the essence(the 1st paragraph is from the sefer, the second is my comments along the lines of this thread:
1) he must apply his mind to the meaning of the words and be aware that the Schehinah is in front of him. purge all other thoughts that preoccupy him and if a foreign thought enters, stop, re-purge and then continue.
those that are in shul should spend their pre-dovenen time to preparing their minds to dovenen and not to noticing what others are or are not wearing.
2) in places and at times that hinder proper application one should not pray – however, because we do not follow rule 1 so well, this does not necessarily apply.
let us make a committment to follow rule 1 so as to better follow rule 2 and not rely on the fact that we mostly do not follow rule 1 all to well.
3) one should supplicate like a begger however one needs to be tranquil and not give the appearance that praying is a burden.
….even if the guy next to you is wearing yellow crocs, be tranquil.
4) being as the prayers substitue for the offerings, thoughts must be proper so as not to invalidate it. additionally is is fitting to have fines clothes specially for prayer (analogous to the Konhanim) but due to cost restraints not everyohe can afford this, nevertheless, it is desirable to have special trousers for praying for cleanliness.
remember why you are there and what you are trying to accomplish forgiveness and closeness to HaShem. Special clothes (trousers) are desirable to better fit the situation that you are currently involved with
5) one should not think that if he did 1-4 above he deserves to be answered Yes to all his requests, rather the prayer should remind him of who he is and his lackings.
no additional comment needed regarding this thread
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perhaps we should spend at least as much time perfecting OUR application of the above rules as we do trying to perfect OTHERS regarding hats, jackets and footwear (not that they are mutually exclusive).
One additional point, one amora said he davka took off his jacket, because he didn’t want to appear choshuv. There is a maila in anivus and simplicity. Remember the story of Choni Hamagel or Reb Chanina ben Dosa. Another tanna stated that if he rested his head on his kness a whole day, the RBSH wouldn’t listen, while Reb Chanina does it for a moment and he is answered. His wife asked him, why, are you less choshuv. He said, no, but I daven like an officer in front of the king, while he davens as an eved in front of the king. The simpler, the more rachmanus hashem has, sometimes.
Finally, we live in a casual time where even a jacket may not always be necessary when seeing a president. President Bush himself is often photographed without a jacket and tie.
I am pretty sure there was a time in Jewish history when no one wore jackets, suits, ties, and Borsalinos. As to the Crocs, instead of focusing on the (in your opinion) “inappropriateness” of the footgear, whouldn’t it be better to focus on the fact that the person is davening regularly altogether? For the record, when my husband had foot surgery, he was thrilled to be able to walk to shul on Shabbos to daven with a minyan at all, and so what if he was wearing slippers and (OH MY GOSH) NO SOX on that foot, because he could not put anything on the foot for a week. Should he have not davened with a minyan, if he was always makpid not to miss it? Sometimes people are so caught up in minutiae, that they forget the larger picture, which is avodas Ha-Shem, and not what type of shoe one is wearing.
to oomis1105..may you can explain your intent with this statement..they are dicussing halacha mentioned in s’u regarding proper attire when davening,so what has ‘there was a time in jewish history…’that you state, got to do here?also your husbands situation what does that prove, of course when i in such situation he can danven which ever way …
jent, mentioning Shulchan Orach tends to offend some peoples American sensibilities here.
Just FYI, the Aroch Hashulchan says clearly based on gemara I quoted earlier about amora who took off jacket at eis tzara so as to appear more pashut, that the minhag yisroel is to daven without a jacket during week, but with a jacket on Shabbos, because we should not focus on tzaros on Shabbos. This is the minhag of a large portion of the klal today.
Misquoting the Mishna Berurah is more offensive than davening in Crocs. Again, the MB does NOT say that ONE MUST DAVEN WITH A JACKET as some claim.
Hakol Lefi Minhag Hamakom. When I lived in Brazil and nobody OWNED jackets (politicians went around in shirtsleeves) would you say that every single tefilla was in violation of your warped reading of the MB?
The Mechaber has a list of things that if done or not done invalidate a tefilla. Not wearing a hat or jacket is not on that list.
Reading the halachos, one can reasonably say that it is better to daven wearing neat and clean casual business attire (shirt and pants) and not an untucked white shirt with 2 coffee stains, a jacket haphazzardly thrown over the shoulders missing 2 buttons and an old dusty hat tilted precariously on the back of the head. Of course, there are those who will argue, but, they have a hat and jacket, thats all that matters.
PYid – “the minhag of a large portion of the klal today” is to dress not tzniusdik also. So while minhugim are being added at an alarming rate, perhaps we can give it a marketing slogan of “A new minhug a day, will make the Yetzer Tov go away!”
jphone – In Brazil the minhug for politicians as well as most of the rest of the populace is to dress in a lot less than merely being sleeveless. Forget them not owning a jacket; do they know what pants looks like?
LOOK at what people actually think is important – not the fact that someone is in shul not missing a minyan, but the fact that he is wearing footgear that someone else does not personally feel is respectful. There are Jewish people who dress in suits and white shirts, and maybe even wear hats and $200 pairs of shoes, who never set ANY foot in a shul, much less a foot wearing crocs. And we wonder why Moshiach isn’t here yet…
UJM, don’t take my word for it, look up Aroch Hashulchan OC 91. What is inetersting is that AHSH says that the guideline is how you would walk in the street, not how you would dress for an odom chashuv like MB. I wonder how the diference is explained.
UJM: Your arguments are getting sillier and siller. Whats next, a made up letter from the steipler Z”l stating that there is a chiyuv to wear a jacket for davening?
So, ujm, you’re saying that it’s ok to follow the MB in an area that conforms with your narrow view, but if it doesn’t fit, then the MB goes out the window?
The point is that the MB says you should dress according to the minhag hamakom. That doesn’t mean that in Brazil, since people don’t dress nicely, you don’t have to. People there do dress nicely for appropriate occasions, and that is how you should dress for davening. If that means pressed pants and a button-down shirt, so be it!
TO mdlevine:
I must have overlooked your posting on Page 7 last week.
Yashe Co’ach for taking the time and effort, but it’s a b’racha l’vatala to think UJM is capable of learning anything.
What is amazing is that UJM posts his source in the Mishne Brura, insists that the Mishne Brura says something that is nowhere to be found, is proven wrong by many who do look up his source, and UJM still insists that the Mishne Brura says it.
The only thing that UJM has proven is his amaratzos and er shemt zich nisht.
cherrybim,
so kindly don’t be so afraid to quote the MB and S’O that was provided to you. you still haven’t done so because you are afraid of what it says.
To answer a previous poster:
The halacha does not change. So if there were times in Jewish history (as there most assuredly were) that NO one davened with a big brimmed hat, or a black suit jacket and white shirt, or maybe even wore no sox with their sandals,and it was “kosher” then to do so, and people were not ostracized for not wearing Yeshivish levush, then perhaps those who hold that this levush is the only proper attire, might consider accepting that other people who dress differently might still be properly attired, as well. But I doubt that will happen, because some people are always so sure they are right, they are unable to even consider a different and perhaps just as valid possibility.
40 years ago, the entire discussion about black hats would not even have taken place. Hats could have been brown, gray, etc. and were not mandatory. As a matter of fact, non Jews in Boro Park commonly wore the same types of hats as Jews going to shul.
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