Daveing with Crocs

Wearing a hat and jacket is a sign of Kavod.

If someone who comes from a background of wearing a jacket and hat does not wear it in shul, he is showing deep disrespect for Hashem. OTOH if someone doesn’t come from such a background, it is fair to assume he is tinuk shenishba in this matter, and we must be him dan lkav zchus.

“Ehrlicha Yidden always wear, barring extenuating circumstances…” Tell that to people in Israel who don’t always. Seems to me that wearing a hat and jacket doesn’t make you “ehrlich”. There is a difference between frum (religious) and ehrlich.

What about a man who doesn’t wear a white shirt and black jacket to work (i.e. a repair man or electrician)? If he makes time from his busy day to daven with a minyan, do you want him to go home to change into clothing that would make him look more like you in order to daven? Or do you concider a man who does blue collar labor not really an ehrlich frum Yid anyway?

Like many people here said, keep your eyes in your siddur. What kind of kavana do you all have when your eyes are busy checking out who is frum enough. Your clothes may make you look frum, but when this is what is bothering you, I don’t concider you very ehrlich.

Poshut, I understand a little more where you’re coming from, somewhere in between two different worlds, perhaps, not fitting in with either. (Though I don’t know if you grew up in this way as well or you evolved thus over the years.)

I hear what you have to say about chareidim, but let me try to explain why I think you have such a low opinion of chareidim.

I think you don’t really underdstand where they are coming from, and your perceptions of their motives are just that- perceptions. You perceive them through the eyes of someone who is not really part of them, and therefor you misunderstand alot of what makes them tick. (You can argue that the same is true of Chareidim not really understanding secularists. This is true. But we are not trying to say that we understand them or are part of them. This is a chareidi site after all)

Take for example the issue with the state of Israel. You write “…and the chareidim show true overflowing ahavah and thanks towards the soldiers, with gedolei yisroel making speeches of thanks (and possibly apologizing as well for the historic negative attitude towards the state). ” You say this because you feel there is what to apologize for. Go and study the writings of the gedolim and their opinions and maybe you’ll understand how the chareidi “negative” attitude towards the state was based on their daas torah! Maybe the Zionists should apologize to the Torah world for the way they treated us??? Go research for yourself about the tremendous abuse the early Zionists afflicted on the frum survivors of Europe after ww2. and how they kidnapped the yemenite children, and covered up their tracks. And read up about the massive sin’a they continue to harbor against the chareidim. There is enough written evidence and proof to these things. You write about chareidim “They either deny the existence of things they don’t want to hear, or else ban them.” this perfectly describes those that defend the zionists. (Do you know that the book “perfidy”, which exposes zionists shocking betrayal of the Jewish plight during WW2 was banned from being sold in Israel for many years?? If you havent read it–you must)

So what should the chareidim apologize for exactly? And none of this even touches upon the core issues of whether or not we may recognize the state of israel, whether taking eretz yisroel by force was halachically permissible, which is too complex to go into now. But do your self a favor and OPEN your mind and go learn about why chareidim hold the positions they do. Why the gedolim of yesteryear, from the satmar Rav to the brisker Rav and everyone in between, held the way they did. You may be surprised at some of the assumptions you have that are based in a fallacy.

I say this based on your comments about the chareidi world in many of the posts. I feel, by reading them that you really are a sincerer Jew who loves Hashem, and much of what you write displays a strong feeling for yiddishkeit. But you are living in a world of ditorted reality (vis-a-vis chareidim) You are like on the edge looking in, but not really grasping what you see, just coming up with your own conclusions.

You remind me a bit of a Shabbos guest we used to have. He was ostensibly “frum” but his hashkafos were so out of whack, it was incredible. He didnt necessarily believe in Torah Shebaal Peh. He once said to me, “I feel I really got a well rounded education. For elementary school i went to a yeshiva day school, and for high school i went to a prep school. So I know both Torah and secular knowledge, as opposed to yeshiva guys who “only” studied Torah.” He fancied himself more qualified and intelligent because he was in both worlds.

If it wasn’t so sad, i would have laughed out-right. He thinks he knows Torah because he learned until 9th grade?! But the point is he truly felt he was a part of our world, and therefor could make judgements. In fact he hadn;t even gotten a taste.

I don’t mean to compare you to him exactly, because you obviously know more Torah than he does. But as far as thinking you understand the chareidi situation, there the similarities lie.

I can’t help but wonder if you don’t find it frustrating to communicate with chareidim in this website and what you gain by it?

There is alot to comment on your letter, as you are probably wondering why I decided that you don’t undersatand chareidim, but i will limit myself to one more thing you wrote because it is late and i need to go to sleep.

You write, “They are afraid of secular knowledge,… So when I hear a chareidi knocking science, which is quite common, I think he must be from another planet.” This line is so obtuse! Firstly, the science community themselves don’t agree on alot of things, For example Global warming is to some a fact and others a contrived fantasy. I dont know which camp you’re on and neither do i care, but there are legitimate respectable scientific minds that hold either way. Same thing in the medical world. I recently heard from a promenant frum doctor the following, “As a doctor, I have very little faith in medicine. I have faith only in the RBSO. The doctors know less than one percent of what there is to know wbout the human body. ” I could go on and on, but what emerges is that ALOT of what we call sciense is only theory, not fact. The best example of this is the Theory of Evolution which is the only one taught in schools across the country. If you want to somehow fit evolution into the Torah account in Bereishis and say it’s not a contradiction, thats your choice (some have done so), I have no problem with it. But you can hear why we Jews, who are known to be the most cynical of peeople are not ready to swallow any theory in the name of science. it doesnt make us backwards or deniers. That being said, I think that all chareidi schools teach science so it’s not like its a “chareidi shitah” to abolish any learning of science.

If you don’t undersatnd why the Gadol you mentioned doesnt use daylight savings, be humble about it (your trademark, RIGHT?) and know that you just dont understand, but do not judge by saying where is it geting us? what do YOU understand about why a tzaddik does what he does??

If you want to know the meaning of true ahavas yisroel, you will only find it by the chareidim. Did you ever hear of stories of secularists coming out and doing chessed with people? There was a beautiful story written by Nachman seltzer and published by the hamodia recently (do you read that chareidi paper?) about a rabbi Dovid Goldwasser (I Think)who heard there was a army camp of some 600 soldiers not far from his moshav who had no food or adequite supplies. When they had a day off, he invited them to his moshav, gave them a pool to swim in, gourmet food, provided music, etc then gave them beds with quilts…in the morning he presented them with a new change of clothes (600 sets!) and new army equipment they were lacking. This was a very moving story about a CHAREIDI displaying ahavas yosroel to SECULAR chayalim without any motive of being mekarev them, simply because they were jews. These storie are not always publicized, but they are out there.

Remember this: what we are against is the zionist philosophy, and the secular ideas. NoT the people themselves, who by and large today are in the category of tinok shenishbu.

I hope i have not offended you in any way with my long post. It was not my intention. Rather, you seem to be a sincere chap who deserves to know the truth. If I did, I ask mechila.

The better question to ask is, Why would someone NOT wear a jacket or hat?

Is there a 2,000 year old minhug to not wear a jacket or hat that we missed somehow?

B”H they daven!

Thank You Feivel.

Now that we have the Mishna Berura, this debate is over. Put on your jackets and hats, please. (And if you don’t, please don’t spread your rebelliousness to others by commenting AGAINST Mishna Berura.)

to pashute yid page 4..so the halchos of tfila, among them,that we stand with aimoh v’yirah before the riboni shel oilom like before a king to who is this haloche is refered to? moav, christians,bnaei eisav, etc ?

Here is the thing:

Okay so for whatever reason you DIDN’T wear you jacket and/or hat by davening as required per mishna brura. Nu. 99.9+% of the time no one is going to come over to you and critique you, even though mishna brura says you should be wearing it.

BUT DON’T GO AROUND, ON BLOGS OR ELSEWHERE, PROMOTING (OR OKAY’ING) THE IDEA OF NOT WEARING A JACKET AND/OR HAT! DON’T SPREAD WHATS WRONG.

A friend of mine was newly BT when he went commited the sin of going into a very “frum” shul wearing a blue shirt and no hat. Someone came over to him and yelled at him for his lack of proper atire and threw him out of the “frum” shul.

To all of you so sure how to be a proper frum Yid: was this proper? What do you think this new BT got from this? Certainly not to dress like those people.

I agree with just me. Too much emphasis isplaced on dress, not behaviour. Three recent incidents:

1. I was at a yeshivish chasuna 3 weeks ago at the hall on 14th ave and 53 st. When it came to daven Mincha at the tish, about 50 men, who had already davened, continued to shmooz while eveyone else was davening. My chavrusa, the father of the chasan, later told me that he personally makes sure he davened Mincha before coming to a simcha because of this .

2. I was at a Pidyon, also in Boro Park, two months ago. Again, every one was properly attired in black hat and suits. While the baal simcha attempted to give a dvar Torah, about 8-% of the olam continued to talk .

3. My great-nephew, a student at a yeshiva in Brooklyn, was recently bar-mitzvahed.

His classmates who already bar-mitzvahed, were shmoozing during davening, but wearing their brand new black hats.

to just me.. we dont even start to believe this story..have been to all kinds of ‘black hatters’ shule and seen plenty times when such tiere yidden dressed like that(blue shirt, small kippah etc,{shorts havent seen, but if yes and were asked to leave is understandable..) were there , and were treated with utmost respect, so either he is lying, or you’re makeng up this story or there is more to it then meets the eye..(yes we consider them heilige tiere yidden…what all these posters are against is guys like rabbi of maskilim, cantor esg, “not so’ pashute yid, less chumres,sinisent etc (b’h havent heard from him awhile so we dont have to put up with another un- chareidi, but we REALLY wish him health and gut yohr) who knimrod gibbor tzeid, come on ehrliche toireh site and mock when heilige gedolim talk about tznoius etc., or when meran hagoan hatzaddike elishev issues issur to certain weeklies (article chareidy weeklys may 3 ,08) they mock..(because truth hurts) and so with every issue that they give hisoirrous drasha…

Instead of just saying “Yes, it’s in the Mishna Berurah”, can you please show me where exactly?

Feif Un –

“Instead of just saying ‘Yes, it’s in the Mishna Berurah’, can you please show me where exactly?”

Hilchos Tefiloh, siman 91, sk 12(megulah)

to feif un, page 4.the mishne berureh is in s’u orach chaim 91 seuf katen 12..but like we mentioned,, he sais if the derech is to go with hat…see ibid.so thats why we mentioned in uor post ,since those yidden go wiyhout hat so its permisable for them,but we no poiseck.

Another concern of the modern orthodox is that the hat will be blown away by a strong wind (happens all the time) and will cause the carrying of the hat in reshus harabim.

Also, what happens to the requirement of hat when using a tallis for davining in the morning? Do we also see a king with a tallis over our heads?

Let the terutzim role in!

doesnt hashem accept all our tefillos, whether black hat, kippah serugah, or bareheaded?

if hashem can accept tefillos from someone who cant even read hebrew but pours his heart out to the Almighty, why cant he accept tefillos of people wearing crocs?

what do shoes have to do with it? granted, i wouldnt wear crocs on shabbos, but i see plenty of bachurim wearing NAOT slippers are they any better, only because

they are leather?

TO PAHUTE YID PAGE 5..L’GABAY THE BAR ILLAN CD..A MASKIL CAME TO THE NETZIV’S TOWN AND SAID HE WILL ONLY MENTION MEMRES FROM SHAS MIDRASHIM ETC.., SO THE TZADDIK TOLD HIM EVEN KOSHER MEAT THATS COOKED IN TREFEHPOT BECOME TREIFEH, AND THE MEKOR IS ‘SEFER TOIRAH SH’KOSVO MIN YISOREF…’, YES YOULL COME WITH YOUR PIPILUM SHEL HAVEL WHY ITS DIFFERENT AND WE WILL COME WITH OUR PILPILUM SHEL HAVEL WHY NOT..SO YOU STICK TO YOUR BAR ILLAN CD AND ME DONT TOUCH SUCH THINGS WE’LL STICK TO ENCYCLOPIDIA TALMUDIST(?) WHAT EVER THAT IS, ASK SAMMY GOL, JUST KIDDING ..WE’LL STICK TO THE CD WITH THE NATURAL COMPUTER CHIPS THE HEILIGE BASHEFER IMPLANTED IN MY BRAIN. BY US ‘CHAREDI’, WE DONT READ NO MATTER HOW CLEAN A BOOK IS, IF ITS FROM KOIFRIM, ETC. SFORIM SAY JUST THE WORDS HAVE HASHPOEH ON THE READER , NOW ,NOW TAKE IT EASY, YOU JUST GO AHEAD AND DO WHAT THE BAR ILLAN CD PASKENS FOR YOU…BUT THIS IS THE SHITA OF HEILIGE ‘MYTH BEARING’ REVISIONIST’ REBBES ….

The MB says if the custom is to daven with a hat, you should. In many communities, the derech is not to wear a hat. So according to the MB, in those places, it’s fine not to, right?

Personally, I wear a hat on Shabbos, but not during the week. In my community, the vast majority of people don’t wear hats – many don’t wear white shirts on Shabbos either, but I do that.

Jent, The CD is called the Responsa, and it is distributed by TES software, based in Monsey Ir Hakodesh, with a branch smack in the middle of MEAH SHEARIM. Now how much more kosher can you get than that?

BTW, because Bar-Ilan didn’t want to be somech on scanning, I was told by founder of project many years ago, they would hire educated kollel wives who knew how to read rabbinic Hebrew to type every word in letter by letter. This gave parnasa to kollel families.

Of course, Jent, I am not even going to bother refuting your assumption that the word Bar-Ilan makes something equivalent to kefira, as it is too silly.

TO JENT, thank you for the correction to my story that it as rabbi Grossman. The name slipped my mind at the time, but I chose to repeat that story specifically because he is very famous and it underscores the point so well, better than if I would have just used some “nameless chareidi rabbi”. That way all the “sceptics” of fanciful stories wont have a pesach.

And whats the excuse for those lacking a JACKET by davening? NONE.

And this is especially problematic during SHACHRIS when some yodles put on a talis without any jacket.

Feif Un –

“The MB says if the custom is to daven with a hat, you should. In many communities, the derech is not to wear a hat. So according to the MB, in those places, it’s fine not to, right?”

Actually, I think he says it’s because that is the way one would present oneself before respected people.

source: http://www.dailyhalacha.com/MBerura/Images/383.jpg

If you are not sure (which I am inferring from “right?”) you should ask your Rov/Rabbi.

You know, it’s all well and good to say that a hat and jacket is a lechatchila according to our particular derech. As a parent though, I long decided that this could not be a yehoreig ve’al ya’avor. I’d seen enough other kids to think, what if my son for whatever reason is chafing at the bit? Should he feel disenfranchised if he comes to shul without a hat or jacket? They always knew that the line was not hat and jacket, or not, but kempt vs. unkempt. You daven, you look like a mensch. Interestingly, they have no problem with the hat and jacket and bli ayin hara are doing quite well in the system.

But we have to loosen up a bit.

Or maybe I’m missing some kana’us gene.