Dating with a divorced guy – when should I ask about his divorce?

If there is a shadchan between you, this is the type of question you ask ask him/her, who can find out more directly from the guy.

If not, you have to take cues from him. He already mentioned his ex and kids, so probably does not mind talking about them, and may even be wondering why you have not asked yet.

This is an important issue and should be raised earlier rather than later.

As to why he did not get married since- don’t hold that against him, it is not so easy to get remarried, and it could very well be that he needed a recovery time before he started dating again. Those years would have been time for wounds to heal, for new family dynamics to work themselves out, for self-improvement to be ready for a new marriage.

trust789: I don’t believe that this is a case of a person being timid.

I would start by asking him about his relationship with his kids. Once he starts talking about them eventually the ex-wife who has custody of them will come up. You have to realize that as long as she has custody of his children there will be a relationship with her and he will be going over there. You need to know how much is his alimony and child support because most of his income will be going toward that and you may end up supporting him. As to what caused the divorce he will blame it on her and the ex will blame it on him and the truth maybe some where in between.

Abba_S’s advice is incredibly smart and on the ball.

… But in the final analyses Lavender, please do bear this in mind:- This man you are dating wasn’t the problem, The real problem/culprit is today’s “paper plate throw away society” syndrome, and clearly the man you are dating isn’t going to solve this ongoing trend and crisis.

Lavender – don’t ask him about the divorce. I think that’s rude. Wait for him to bring it up. A fourth date may be too early to expect him to bring it up.

I agree with Trust789 that you should have looked into this before going out. But it’s not too late – you can speak to references at any point. You probably won’t have time before the 4rth date, but as soon as possible, you should call his references or other people who might know about the divorce.

It’s generally best to speak to a Rav who was involved with the divorce. You do want to try to make sure to speak to people who know the story, are objective and who will be careful not to unneccesarily shmear the wife.

One Rosh Yeshiva whom I once called to ask about a divorce just told me that I have nothing to worry about. He didn’t want to speak unnecessary LH about the ex-wife. I was very impressed by this.

It is very unfortunate that when divorced people are in shidduchim, it becomes necessary for everyone to be talking about them, so one has to be careful about hilchos LH and not saying anything unnecessary. At the same time, it is VERY IMPORTANT to check things out as thoroughly as possible.

But you don’t want to speak to people who are just going to keep shmearing the wife unneccessarily (I remember one phone call where I had no choice but to remove the phone from my ears until the person finished talking).

Of course, since you are going on a fourth date, it is more relevant for you to have more information at this point than if you were going on a first date, so all of this is less of an issue, and you should be checkiing things out pretty thorougly.

When I check out divorced guys, I usually try to ask if he pays child support. You don’t want to marry a guy who doesn’t pay child support! Unless there are extenuating circumstances – like if his wife won’t let him see the kids (but then you also have to check out why she won’t).

“When I check out divorced guys, I usually try to ask if he pays child support. You don’t want to marry a guy who doesn’t pay child support!”

Here in New York, HRA the Social Service Agency will collect child support for a nominal fee, if you are not on a government program, otherwise it’s free, hunting them down and collecting the child support. I think most states have similar programs, it gets a lot of people off government programs and saves the taxpayers millions of dollars a year. It’s usually garnished off the payroll check so not paying child support is not an option unless they are paid in cash (off the books). So unless the dead beat dad lives and work outside of the US he will be paying child support. Likewise, he can’t avoid child support payment just because he wasn’t granted visitation rights that he was entitled to.

Lavender – You need to see how your boyfriend interact with his children and their mother. This will show his true feelings rather then try to find out who was at fault. You need to meet the children in order to know if they will accept you or consider you to be the evil stepmother. You will also need to have a good relationship with the ex wife as she can make your boyfriend’s life and if you marry him you life as well, a living hell, as long as she has custody of his kids.

I don’t mean to scare you away from this relationship, I just am telling you things you should be aware of before committing to this relationship. May you find your true love and build a true house in Israel.

Lavender, why are you asking total strangers for advise on an important life decision? Would you walk up to a stranger on the street and ask?

Abba-S -“So unless the dead beat dad lives and work outside of the US he will be paying child support.”

Obviously you’re not a lawyer! Let me tell you a secret – there are millions of dead beat dads. All they do is move to a different state.

And even if they don’t move, they can stay out of jail – if they prove that they are indigent.

I just hope that no one listens to advice given in an anonymous blog!

Abba_S your points are good ones, and I agree that bad relationships with the kids and ex can be a deal breaker or ruin a second marriage, and Lavender needs to know what she is getting in to. And finances must be discussed.

But considering that they have not even discussed his divorce and kids, it is too early to bring the kids into the picture or ask to meet them. When it is serious, she will meet them. I do not think it healthy for kids to be meeting every girl their father dates, only the one who will become their step-mother, and it seems that Lavender is not yet at that point.

even if all goes well, and they do reach the point when she meets the kids, I am not sure how much she will be able to tell by meeting them- as you say, dynamics will change as the kids get older, and even when they realize what it really means for their father to be married to someone not their mother, and have other kids with her who will get more of their father’s attention than they do… it is hard to predict how people, especially children will react. And the dynamics with his ex also may change if she is jealous that he is remarried, and she not, etc.

Better than how the kids or ex-wife responds, I think is how the father responds- when conflict arises between kids and new wife, whose side will he take? Will he be truly supportive of his new wife and her struggles to accept his kids and deal with his ex? Will she feel like the outsider when the kids are visiting, or will he present a united front of “we are the parents now” to his kids? How will he deal when the kids challenge his new wife’s authority?

I think these are important things to work out with him while dating, neither of them can predict or control how the kids or ex will behave, but they can work out how they will act and react to these situations, and that is ultimately what is important. Even if the kids or ex turns their lives into a living nightmare, if the father is truly supportive of his new wife and they can build a strong marriage, they can survive the nightmare.

Abba: “You will also need to have a good relationship with the ex wife as she can make your boyfriend’s life and if you marry him you life as well, a living hell, as long as she has custody of his kids.”

This is a very good point. Even though of course you have to take the guy’s side (if you marry him), you also want to make sure to maintain a certain amount of neutrality in terms of how you relate to the ex-wife. Being antagonistc to her will hurt your relationship with the kids and b’ezras Hashem,the future grandchildren whom you will be sharing with the ex-wife.

The second wife can actually be helpful in terms of neutralizing the situation and leading to a more peaceful situation in which the two sides are able to communicate more peacefully and civilly, which is important as B’ezras Hashem, there will be shared Simchas in the future. I have seen this happen.

LB- I have been told by Rabbanim that in general, at my age, it is better to date guys were previously married. This is a general rule, there are exceptions, and everything must be taken on a case-to-case basis, imho.

I have known older single girls who married guys who were never previously married, girls who married guys who were divorced, and girls who married widowers. It seems to me that for girls in their 40’s, marrying someone divorced is the most common scenario.

No health, that was not what I was saying, B”H I have never been divorced, but I know people who were, so this is not coming from nowhere. What I was trying to say, I guess not clearly enough, is that even if the divorce was amicable, and everything is smooth in terms of custody and visitation etc, the dynamics can change when one party remarries- things will be better IY”H for the remarrying father and his new wife, but not necessarily for the ex-wife. so as much as Lavender can check out what the relationship with the kids and ex are now, it does not mean that it will stay that way, and she should not have any illusions that things will be smooth sailing in such a complex situation.

Sorry, I wish I had someone for you, but my friends all have issues, I don’t think you would want to date them (think Rabbit and his neurosis, Eyore and his lack of self-esteem, Tigger and his hyperactivity…) Besides, they’re all guys, except Kanga, and she has a kid (from a previous marriage???)

WtP -“Besides, they’re all guys, except Kanga, and she has a kid (from a previous marriage???)”

Well – does she or doesn’t she?

Health, I don’t think it will work out for you with Kanga, she is very overprotective of her kid. And I don’t know anything about Roo’s father.

Abba-S -“Getting a job outside of the state doesn’t help because your employer must check your social security number to verify you are legal, informing the IRS who inform the state who then garnish the child support from your paycheck.”

You don’t know what you’re talking about!

The IRS doesn’t do anything, except not giving a return on income taxes owed to the Dead – Beat dad.

If the ex knows what state he moved to – her State can go to the other state and start proceeding over there.

“Miss one payment and they will garnish all future payments from your paycheck.”

Even in the same State – if you’re self-employed – there is no garnishment!

Even in the same State – if you’re self-employed – there is no garnishment!

If he is self employed that means he is getting 1099s which is reported to the state and the IRS.Any entity that paid anyone over $1,000.00 per year must file a 1099 with the IRS and the state. Any bank account must have a social security number attached to it which is reported to the IRS & state. Many businesses wouldn’t deal with anyone with bad credit and no bank account. The state will go after whoever is paying the deadbeat as if they were the employer. So unless he is in a field that doesn’t have repeat customers they are going to collect by either taking it from the bank account or from one of the customers just like a garnishment.

The difference is that all of those who submitted 1099 will get a letter of garnishments saying that he owes the state $xx.00 in child support and requiring them not to pay him until the outstanding balance is paid.

It is possible for someone to be self-employed and not get 1099’s. Someone can be self-employed and not be receiving $1,000 a year from one entity.

Additionally, he can be unemployed and have someone else supporting him.

Also, how would the State even know that he is not paying child support unless his ex-wife reports him (and she may be reluctant to do so, or there may be halachic issues involved)?

Also, the issue could be that he managed to get away with making a (unfair) deal that he wouldn’t have to pay child suppport in the first place – maybe it was the only way he would agree to give a Get even though the Beis Din said that he should.

There are many ways that a person can be negligent in his responsibilities if he really wants to be (I am not talking about someone who really, really is trying his best, and is just not able to).

Of course, it will be hard to get to the bottom of it in any case, but I think it is kidai to at least ask. The answer may provide a red flag that would be worth looking into further.

As far as when to bring this up: The question should not be based on the number of dates, rather the point of relationship, and other variables. If there is something serious you suspect you must deal with it before the relationship get’s serious, otherwise you are hurting everyone. A basic picture of his divorce is mandatory before you meet, and then intuitively following up based on what you see.

“What – you just can’t admit that I’m right?!?

Let’s say he owns a grocery store – the customers don’t file 1099’s.

Let’s say he does appliance repair – the customers don’t file 1099’s!”

OKAY YOU ARE RIGHT. But please explain how he can open a grocery store which is licensed by either the state, city or county if state law mandates the suspension all government licenses for deadbeats. How does he pay suppliers, landlord and staff without bank accounts. The same applies to an appliance repair business which must be licensed by the New York City or the county at least for Long Island. How does he go to repair jobs if his drivers license is suspended.

An easier way is to move to Canada and the deadbeat can earn a normal living. But he still has to live in fear of the State tracking down. There was a case in Israel and they tracked him to Texas and sued him and the US and Canada has a closer relationship.

And I worked from the house so I didn’t need a car, so a suspended license wouldn’t have affected me.

Abba_S -“But please explain how he can open a grocery store which is licensed by either the state, city or county if state law mandates the suspension all government licenses for deadbeats.”

I didn’t say Open, but owns one!

Okay. How does he own one of these businesses when his licenses to operate either of these businesses are suspended. If caught operating with a suspended license he will be closed down and fined.

“How does he pay suppliers, landlord and staff without bank accounts.”

Easy; credit cards, money orders.

This would be very expensive and time consuming making it unprofitable. Because of the large amount of money involved money laundering maybe suspected. Also he will have to keep large sums of cash on hand making him a prime target for robbery.

“How does he go to repair jobs if his drivers license is suspended”

Hires a driver. Takes car services, taxis, buses.

This cuts into the number of jobs he can take and is an added expense making the business less profitable.

Health +1.

Additionally: “Also he will have to keep large sums of cash on hand making him a prime target for robbery.”

He probably doesn’t make a lot of money. That is why he is not paying child support.

“Hires a driver. Takes car services, taxis, buses.

This cuts into the number of jobs he can take and is an added expense making the business less profitable.”

1. If he lives in EY (which he does, in Lavender’s case),many people don’t have cars and rely on busses. They are not expensive. There are also places in the US where you can rely on public transportation.

2. Nowadays, a lot of people work online.

3. If he lives in EY (which he does) since everyone lives in aparment buildings, you have many people living within a small area, so he may be able to work within his community and walk to each job. I know a plumber who does this, and I’m sure there are many other plumbers and electricians who do this.

4. He can have a job that involves all of his customers coming to him.

5. If he has a job that involves earning a lot of money per job it might be worthwhile to take a taxi.

“Okay. How does he own one of these businesses when his licenses to operate either of these businesses are suspended. If caught operating with a suspended license he will be closed down and fined.”

Many people own businesses without licenses.

Another answer to all of the above questions is that he may not have a job at all. He may be learning full-time. There have been divorced guys who were suggested to me who were learning full-time. Often, those were the cases where it concerned me that they weren’t paying child support.

Abba_S -“While they have that days cash receipts at the end of the day it goes into the safe and deposited the following day. The deadbeat doesn’t have a bank account.”

So he keeps it in the safe!

“Also the state can confiscate the business and sell the business to pay past and future child support.”

If the State knows about the business!

Do you really think all Dead – Beat Dads have to leave the State that they live in?

There are millions of Dead – Beat Dads and most stay where they are!