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Ok – since guys only want size zero (See the thread “Shidduchim: Girls & Size Zeros”), here’s what girls should want:
Tall (over six feet)
*Waist size 26
*Stunningly handsome
*Rich
*Most respected boy in his Yeshiva (of course Lakewood, Mir, or Brisk are the ideal Yeshivos)
OK? So if a shaddchan redts you anything less, then that Shaddchan is off your list!!!
The laws of supply and demand favor bochors very strongly.
First, no girl wants a guy with a 26 inch waist. We are shaped differently, and a guy that thin is probably also 5 feet tall and looks like a rail.
Second, I thought this was actually going to be a serious post, and I’d like to suggest one. Girls often don’t know what to look for in guys because they don’t understand being a guy. But we know who the good guys are, and we know what characteristics they have. You should start a thread to ask us.
I think we should go to sem for five years, nap Shabbos afternoon, arrive at the table like a guest and leave dirty clothing everywhere, while the guy works full time, raises the kids, cooks, cleans up, shops, picks up all our dirty stuff (cause we don’t feel like walking it 6 feet over to the laundry basket)…. Get my drift?
On a more serious note, attraction, similar hashkafah, emotional maturity (a biggie), and good middos. That, IMHO, should be the wish list.
sometimes the “best” “top” or “most respected” guy in the yeshiva is also the most aggressive least emotionally intelligent and not hygenic if that’s what you want go for it but just know everyone is a whole package.
“I think we should go to sem for five years, nap Shabbos afternoon, arrive at the table like a guest and leave dirty clothing everywhere, while the guy works full time, raises the kids, cooks, cleans up, shops, picks up all our dirty stuff (cause we don’t feel like walking it 6 feet over to the laundry basket)….”
Not all yeshiva boys are like that. From the limited exposure I’ve had, it seems those boys are the exception.
And excuse me for saying this, but you are one person I would not ask what a girl should look for.
That’s ok. I’m still willing to help you.
Just explain something; why is it ok for the boys to be shallow and not the girls?
It isn’t. But, what is shallow for guys is different than what is shallow for girls.
If you are dating a guy who is very concerned about his clothing and appearance, and reads mens fashion advice, and brings two suits when he goes somewhere for shabbos, and brings a comb with him to touch up in the bathrom at a friend’s wedding–he is shallow.
If you are dating a girl who is obsessed about the appearance of who she dates–she is shallow.
Does that make sense now?
There is (1)the answer, and (2)why you should just trust us on it even if you don’t understand.
You should just trust us on it, the same way you will acknowledge that women are incredibly “petty” in many ways–as men perceive it. But that those behaviors are actually not petty for women. Even though men will never ever understand.
The answer is that the way men are made, is that looks are very important when beginning a relationship, and that in particular, being thin is very attractive. And that is the truth–don’t let any woman convince you otherwise.
The reason G-d did that, is because that way men are attracted to health. In our society, being too fat is a bigger health problem than being too skinny, so thin is perceived as healthy.
And if you think about it, that is why G-d made you guys so absurdly petty about your looks.
I once posted an article about this, written for women. It is in one of these threads, I can try to look for it later.
I found the article. I had posted about it here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shidduchim-and-weight/page/4#post-238331
It is called “the truth about beauty”, and it appeared in some website called psychology today. I’m not posting a link, since the images are NSFYW (or for work).
gefen- do i know you? you sound like you know me….. tell your daughter good luck! that’s what most girls are looking for……
I said it as a joke- because you are describing what I and many other girls are looking for…… and i happen to be thin and pretty…
gefen; I don’t think that is on point. Guys are not making a conscious decision to look for a healthy spouse; they just know when they are attracted to someone, and when not.
Also, I’m betting dollars to donuts, that if you had to ask advice from someone on the CR, I’d be in your top 3. So, methinks thou doth protesteth too much.
I generally don’t find myself attracted to very thin girls. But don’t assume most guys are like me, because most guys are not like me.
Ok, but how about a reaction to the shallow issue? Aren’t women just as shallow, in their own way? (Seriously, you paint your fact to convince yourself that you really have bright red lips and blue eyelids?)
And can’t we all decide that maybe what we don’t understand may not be shallow, from the other’s perspective?
Correct. Meaning that I don’t think women are shallow for wearing makeup, even though it seems incredibly shallow to me.
And you shouldn’t think men are shallow for wanting thin spouses, even though it seems incredibly shallow to you.
Isn’t this a good way to live?
He didn’t say he thinks women are shallow. He said that despite that a certain act appears shallow to him, he recognizes that for a woman to act that way does not render her shallow. If there’s one thing you want in a relationship it’s the understanding that we do not expect each other to be the same; that we respect the fact that we are different. That’s what’s going on here. To guys, being that concerned about looks is shallow. But we understand that it’s not that way for women, and we respect that. What Popa is doing, besides for saying that, is turning it around on you – that you should recognize that the same concept exists when a guy wants a pretty girl.
Gefen- you seem to have made two different points above. First of all, you complain that men are looking for a “trophy wife”. Second you complain that they are shallow. While I agree with you that it seems shallow to demand perfect looks (although I have no idea what type of sorry community you live in cuz none of my friends are like that), the first point is none of your business. I think everyone has the right to look for what you call a “trophy wife”, and there’s no reason to not try to look for the best wife you can get. You do have a point by saying that if to a man a “trophy wife” means good looks and not good middos he’s shallow. But I hate these complaints. Not all men are like that at all, and as popa said, we think that some things that women do are crazy also. But you won’t find 50 threads on yeshiva world started by men that “boo-hoo! ALL women are air-heads!!” or whatever. Grow up.
justThink, I’m sorry, but while you made some good points, what you said at the end was rude.
I think there’s a big difference between a woman’s desire to be attractive and a man’s “need” to have a pretty wife. For a woman, being attractive is one of the most natural, and important, things for her in order to feel good about herself. It is literally part of their nature. That isn’t shallow at all. It’s the same as a man’s intrinsic desire to be respected. Being respected makes a man feel good about himself. That isn’t shallow either. But if a man “needs” that his wife be very pretty in order to make HIM feel better, that IS shallow. Your personal satisfaction should not be dependent upon another person. Sure, it is important to be attracted to your wife, but if you need her to simply be pretty to feel good about yourself, that is shallow.
Middle Path: VERY WELL SAID!!
No internet & no smoking. Seriously, either one (for a Lakewood guy who doesn’t need internet for school) should be an absolute no.
Middlepath:
Would you please elaborate on that? I don’t see any distinction which should make for a difference.
And I would point out that women are petty as regards how other people look also. Ask any guy whose wife has asked them not to wear a particular shirt or tie.
a mamin, thank you.
popa, I’d assume most men wouldn’t be able to see this distinction, or at least blind themselves to it to justify their viewpoint. But it’s basically this: If your personal satisfaction depends upon another person’s attributes, that is shallow, and even unhealthy. This would include a guy “needing” a pretty wife, more than just being attracted to her. If your personal satisfaction depends upon your own attributes, that is good. This would include a woman’s desire to be attractive, as well as a man’s desire to have respect.
In regard to what you said about women wanting their husbands to wear specific articles of clothing, yes, that is petty. However, once a man is married, he should do everything he can to make his wife happy, so wearing something she wants, which shouldn’t be a big deal to him, would be a good idea to make her happy. If it really IS a big deal to him, he can discuss it with her, and then she would have a opportunity to make HIM happy by not controlling what he wears.
Middlepath:
I’m sorry if I came off as rude, as that was definitely not my intention. My point is that men and women don’t think alike(for that matter, no two men or women think alike), and that I’m sick of all the complaints women have about men when it comes to shiduchim. Secondly, I’m fed up with the generalizations that all men are like that. Men have issues when it comes to shiduchim too. For example, i have a friend who’s having a difficult time with shiduchim, because he’s a low key, quite kind of guy. After a date or two the girl’s dump him because “he doesn’t have a personality” or “he’s boring”. If you know him, that is definitely not true. But I guess on the first couple of dates, since he’s a little shyish, they decide that he doesn’t have a personality. Now do I have a right to start complaining “women are looking for the absolute PERFECT man that’s lively and outgoing and is exciting and will entertain them, and they make generalizations about personalities before they even get to know them, wow this is so shallow!” Obviously, this is a dumb thing to say because 1. everyone is looking for something different. 2. it’s not right to say this is what women in general do. I feel bad for the women who have had bad experiences with their weight in shiduchim, but as I said, NONE of my friends are like that. Keep looking somewhere else.
And BTW; I just want to let everyone know that I know women who would turn down a shiduch because of the guys looks. It looks like we have these “shallow monsters” everywhere.
So your argument is that it is ok to need yourself to be “just so” externally, but not ok to need your spouse to be “just so” externally.
But why? Why is it less petty when applied to yourself? I’d argue it is more petty since at least you should be able to appreciate yourself without putting paint on your face!
Seriously; we both know my original explanation is correct. G-d made men and women to care about different things, and neither is petty, since it is important to us.
popa, I’d assume most men wouldn’t be able to see this distinction, or at least blind themselves to it to justify their viewpoint.
Careful; if you don’t fight fair, I might not either.
justThink, thanks for saying that. Regarding the point you made, yes, it is unfair of those girls to break off dating a guy early on because of his shyness, because that is usually something that comes with time. They can’t expect him to be completely himself the first time, especially if it’s a situation where they were set up by a third party and they don’t know each other at all.
popa, you’re not getting it. And no, I don’t think your original explanation is correct. I found a better way to describe the distinction I’m talking about: The distinction is “self esteem” and “self centeredness”. For a girl, her appearance directly relates to her self esteem. And if that includes “paint on her face”, then that is what’s needed. Self esteem is important, and is good. But for a guy to only want a pretty girl, that is self centeredness. And that is BAD.
And I’m not fighting, I’m simply explaining my stance. And in this particular issue, I think many men DO blind themselves to it to justify their viewpoint. In other issues, women blind themselves to justify their viewpoints. Everyone does it at times.
I see. So when men want something which G-d made important to them, that is self centeredness. But when women want something which G-d made important to them, that is self-esteem. Nice.
(Also, they are both self esteem and are both self centeredness, but that is not relevant anyway, so I’m not going there.)
So, if I insist on only marrying a girl whose father will buy me a corvette, that is self esteem. But if I insist on only marrying a girl who will cook for shabbos, that is self centeredness.
And despite the fact that you refuse to fight fair, and instead just make claims that I “can’t understand”, I am not responding in kind. But I am going to continually point that out, until you stop.
“So when men want something which G-d made important to them, that is self centeredness.”
G-d made it important to us so we would appreciate it. That does NOT mean we need it. I appreciate Ferraris. I don’t need one.
“But when women want something which G-d made important to them”
This is part of their nature, and they NEED it to have self esteem. The same way men need, and are entitled, to feel respect, which boosts our self esteem.
“So, if I insist on only marrying a girl whose father will buy me a corvette, that is self esteem. But if I insist on only marrying a girl who will cook for shabbos, that is self centeredness.”
Both are self centeredness, because in both, the person is insisting on things from other people that only enhance his own pleasure. If you need to raise your self esteem through a Corvette, you can buy it yourself. You can’t demand it from others.
And I don’t care enough to fight at all, actually. I realize you probably won’t ever agree with my viewpoint, and that doesn’t concern me at all. And if you think I’m completely wrong, wonderful. Everyone is entitled to their own views. I don’t feel the need, nor do I see the benefit, for me to reply to this discussion any more.
gufibgjrigjrthpo
And I don’t care enough to fight at all, actually. I realize you probably won’t ever agree with my viewpoint, and that doesn’t concern me at all. And if you think I’m completely wrong, wonderful. Everyone is entitled to their own views. I don’t feel the need, nor do I see the benefit, for me to reply to this discussion any more.
Oh, I’m sorry I got you upset. I don’t know why you brought up fighting.
question: hashkafically, is there a difference between an iphone or a blackberry? does that hint to what his views are?
A woman needs to be able to respect her husband just as he needs to believe that his wife is beautiful.
The question is if he is looking for looks to impress his friends or because he needs to feel attraction….
blackberry is more work related…. iphone is also but not as much and more shticky…… but why does that matter? please explain…..
The question is if he is looking for looks to impress his friends or because he needs to feel attraction….
Presumably it is both. But I don’t think you should be bothered by that.
Chazal say that if there was no jealousy in the world, people would not build houses, or get married, or plant fields. Men want to have a big house so that they will feel respectable; they want a fancy car, a pretty wife, nice kids, etc., all so they will feel respectable.
Sure, we can aspire to not care what other people think of us, but chazal say that this is part of the reason that G-d did make us care what other people think of us. Specifically so that we would want to outdo each other and so we could accomplish things.
And if you don’t mind, I’ll flip the question. Aren’t a lot of the things women want in a spouse so that their friends will see what a chashuv catch they got? Don’t you want your friends to think what a talmid chochom you got? Or what a rich doctor you got? (Depending on your circle of friends.)
“And if you don’t mind, I’ll flip the question. Aren’t a lot of the things women want in a spouse so that their friends will see what a chashuv catch they got? Don’t you want your friends to think what a talmid chochom you got? Or what a rich doctor you got? (Depending on your circle of friends.)”
I’m not going to generalize for others but I honestly work on myself to only care what G-d thinks. Not that I am on that level yet, but I do have a very strong sense of self, enough that what I am looking for in a marriage partner is only someone I am compatible with and who sees the same future that I do.
It makes no difference to me if others approve or disapprove. Approval is nice but holds no weight in my decision.
Money is a convenience, a talmid chacham is necessary exclusively so that I can respect him. Each is a nice attribute but once I am married and we are no longer on display, nothing will matter except if he has the tools and desire to build in the same direction I do.
I am sure I am not alone.
A girl should look for a boy:
1. who appeals to her
2. has a good reputation
3. is ambitious
4. and responsible.
1. What appeals to one girl is uninteresting to another. Each person has his own likes and dislikes. This is an emotional thing and cannot be scientifically qualified. However, a girl should know (and so should a boy) that this surface appeal is meant to help them develop a loving relationship early on in marriage, because this “stunning” or “ravishing” look will fade over time, either through aging or habit. The attraction should later be based on who they are and not how they look.
2. The boy should have what the girl considers a good reputation. A reputation for honesty and integrity, good manners, consideration for others, empathetic, etc. are all good stuff.
3. If the boy is a Ben Torah, he should be ambitious about trying to maximize the number of years (and hours of the day) that he could learn, and heights of Torah scholarship in all areas that he could reach.
4. Nevertheless he should be responsible about his duties as a husband, father, and breadwinner.
Interjection:
I’m glad you are working on yourself. Most men I know are also working on themselves, so it should be a good shidduch.
Aside: Off the cuff, I’m not sure the goal should be to not care what other people think at all. G-d made us care, because it is something we can use to further our avodas Hashem; and like everything else, can also be used for the opposite. That is how I understand it.
popa: It’s funny you know men. But who’s using the CR as a shidduch database…?
“G-d made us care, because it is something we can use to further our avodas Hashem; and like everything else, can also be used for the opposite. That is how I understand it. “
You got it exactly right! We don’t have nevuah so the closest we have to knowing G-d’s will is from others. Caring what others think is extremely useful, even crucial, when it helps with one’s avodas Hashem. But you approach dangerous territory when you care too much about external opinion; it almost seems as if you’re serving other people.
Things like money, status and materialism are useful to help one achieve his mission. A person should feel good about himself but not to the point that he cares more about his friend’s opinion than of G-d’s.
Agreed.
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