Dating question

In Eretz Yisroel the standard is that the dating couple meet at the site they’re going to.

As a father, my first response is “?What? you’re going to a hotel on a first date?”

But seriously, I preferred that my daughters who were not living at home when they were dating, not have males come to their apartments and meet in a public place for safety reasons.

I disagree with charliehall about “wear something that makes you comfortable.” If in your picture on SYAS you were wearing Shabbos clothing and makeup, you need to wear that on the first date. G-d Willing there will be a second date and then you can wear comfortable clothing. He will be checking to see if your picture was “enhanced” -and you should do the same.

And yes, it is totally normal to meet in a hotel lobby and talk.

I would agree with charlihall about being honest, but you don’t need to answer every question you are asked. My rule of thumb is don’t ask or answer anything you wouldn’t want on page 1 of The New York Times on a first date. Feel free to change the subject.

Ask him to describe what Shabbos afternoon is like on a long summer Shabbos or what Saturday night is like on a short winter Shabbos. Ask him about all of his siblings and tell him about all of yours. The point of the conversation is to try and determine whether shy means he is emotionally unavailable. If you smile and are careful to be non-threatening, will he open up and tell you the things that his casual acquaintances know about him?

Joseph – the way they act.

Are you in Israel or the US? As someone who has dated extensively in both countries, in Israel (as Joseph wrote) it’s normal to meet at a hotel lobby. In the US, the guy always picked me up. But I agree with CTlawyer that it is much safer to meet the guy somewhere and not have him pick you up for a first date. I think this is particularly true for a SYAS shidduch. Since everything takes place over a computer, you really have no idea who the guy is and he has no one “to answer to”. It’s kind of like the difference between taking a private taxi vs. a taxi driver who works for a company. I always thought there was something a bit strange and dangerous about having a strange guy pick me up.

One thing that I personally find inappropriate is when the guy expects me to travel (to another city) to meet him. In my opinion, the guy should travel to meet the girl and it is setting a bad precedent for the relationship if she has to travel to meet him. The only exception to this rule would be if he lives in the NY/NJ area and she lives very far away (Chicago, Canada, etc.) That is my opinion; others will disagree.

But if you are meeting locally, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the two of you meeting at the dating location.

lilmod, why are you of the opinion that it is “inappropriate” for the guy to expect the girl to travel to his city for the date? What makes the reverse more appropriate and what “bad precedent” is established otherwise? And why does NY/NJ change in this regard, per your opinion?

Absan, how do you know who is a guy and who is a girl?

Everyone agreed that it was okay to meet at a hotel, and that was the main issue.

In terms of clothes, I don’t think it makes much of a difference as long as you aren’t wearing denim and sneakers. But if someone normally wears Shabbos clothes, she shouldn’t think that she is supposed to wear weekday clothes just because he is not picking her up. And if someone is asking already, I think it’s preferable to wear Shabbos clothes on a date.

lilmod, after that explanation, why your differentiation on this point for NY/NJ?

Also, if the guy is in Kollel and him travelling will result in Bitul Torah that could be alleviated if she came to his town, would you be more amenable to her travelling rather than him? (I would.)

LU every time I read your post I get angrier. Let me first say that I’ve asked a girl to travel only twice and I hated it. nevertheless the assumptions you make on your post are just not true.

Here is the reasoning you gave: 1. Men are from Mars agrees with what you said 2. a rav told your friend what you said 3. Guys are asking girls to travel to their place because they don’t value them enough.

I don’t need to answer 1 and 2. As for 3, here’s a scenerio for you. It’s busy time at college. I’ve travelled to the girl’s place on the first three dates, Therefore I missed 3 days of studies. I have tons of homework. So I ask the girl to travel. Does that mean my attitude is “there are so many girls to date, I don’t need to travel in order to date.”

The thing is, guys avoid dating girls who live out of town. They avoid dating during exam saeason. They scedule one date a week. This is what they actually do when it’s impossible for them to spend whole days on the road. It’s not so bad if the girls made it easier on them from time to time.

And now I’ve calm down and am uncomfortable to read the angry words. I’m Sure you meant well but I just think you’re too hard on the guys.

lilmod, can you clarify about your differentiation regarding NY/NJ on the topic under discussion?

Joseph: “lilmod, after that explanation, why your differentiation on this point for NY/NJ?”

Because NY/NJ is considered the center of the American Jewish world in general and the American Jewish dating world in particular. If someone lives in a far-out non-typical place, it makes sense to say that she should have to travel for dating. However, if the girl is already in NY/NJ, I don’t see why she should have to travel.

In Israel, if the boys lives in Yerushalayim and I live outside Yerushalayim, I would expect to travel to Yerushalayim, but if I lived in Yerushalayim and he lived outside of Yerushalayim, I would expect him to travel to Yerushalayim.

As I wrote in my original post, I am sure some will disagree with me. I realize the NY/NJ point in particular was subjective, but that is how I feel.

LU no I’m sorry I should have asked you to clearify before going on a rant. Thank you for explaining.

I don’t like the attitude you describe either. I’ve never heard of a guy who asked a girl to travel on a first date. On one case a guy told the shadchan that he couldn’t date because he’s to busy and the girl offered herself to travel.

I think it’s more tznius and more safe to meet the guy at a public meeting place. He should, though, escort you back to your home, after the date. That’s the real chivalry.

Joseph please explain.

limud, it is assur for him to let her go first or walk behind her. Does anyone here disregard Shulchan Aruch? No posek, absolutely no one, argues against Shulchan Aruch on the issur against walking behind a woman.

Jews do not follow Christian “courtesies”.

Joseph – we don’t always posken according to the Shulchan Aruch. In terms of this specific issue, Rav Frand has a recorded shiur on the topic that I’m sure you could get a hold of. I believe that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach has a teshuva on it.

It’s a bit more complicated than that. On this topic from the website ‘revach’ (which is operated by big talmidei chachamim):

“Today, says the Tzitz Eliezer (and Rav Vosner ybc”l concurs), in a situation where you’d like to be respectful and courteous, you need not refrain from doing so because of this gemara, and we can rely on the Trumas HaDeshen.”

In the original case we were talking about (the guy escorting the girl home) it’s a safety issue. That is part of chivalry. So is taking care of his wife after she gives birth, which I think I heard there are halachos about, although I’m not sure. Even if there aren’t specific halachos, it’s clearly a chiyuv in any case.

Given the sorry state of men and masculinity in today’s society, these acts of chivalry seem like a good idea. Opening a car door for a woman might not be mandated by halacha, but it’s a small way to show you care about them, and makes them feel taken care of (which is important because women tend to be more nurturing).

I just spent $3.00 to purchase a download of Rav Frand’s shiur entitled “Nasso 20- Walking behind a woman” from the Yad Yechiel website.

He first quotes the Gemara, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch who say that it is assur to walk behind a woman. He then brings the Tzitz Eliezer who raises the question regarding what to do if you encounter an Eishes Chaveir (wife of a Talmid Chacham). On the one hand, there is an obligation to show honor to the wife of a Talmid Chacham which would entail letting her go first. On the other hand, it is forbidden for a man to walk behind a woman.

The Tzitz Eliezer quotes the Trumas Hadeshen who states that he should let her go first since today we are not so careful not to walk behind women in general. The Tzitz Eliezer is puzzled by this – why should that make a difference? He came up with the following svara to explain the Trumas Hadeshen- it used to be that women did not go out and it was unusual to find a woman in the street so the sight of a woman was likely to lead to hirhur. However, today (in the Trumas Hadeshen’s times) it had become normal for women to be out on the streets, so it was no longer a problem to walk behind a woman.

The Tzitz Eliezer wrote his svara to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach who was maskim to (accepted) it. Rav Shlomo Zalman also added that when manners dictate letting the woman go first, one should do so.

Rav Frand also added that Rav Dovid (I’m not sure who that is, but the guys present probably know) would tell bochurim when they were dating to hold open the door for the girl even though this would entail walking behind her. (although personally, I don’t see why this has to be the case. Why can’t she walk through the doorway and then move to the side?, but in any case, that seemed to be his assumption)

If anyone wants to listen to the shiur, they can purchase the download for $3.00. Please don’t argue with me about the topic until you have listened to the shiur.

Joseph: “There’s an equally sorry state of femininity, with society pushing women to become like men. Given women’s nurturing nature, as you said, it would make sense to stress that by having them take care of, and show care to, their husband (or date) by opening the door for him.”

I agree (to some degree) with the first part, but I don’t think that’s the way to show nurturing. The ways that women show nurturing to men is different than the ways that men give to women. That’s why the term nurturing is used specifically for women and giving is used for men. The two do not have the same meaning and entail different things.

Joseph: Chivalrous acts are meant to prove that a man has certain good middos that we wouldn’t necessary expect; they aren’t natural. Specifically, in being chivalrous, a man says to the woman that he’s not just going to bring home the bacon and provide for her financially, but also cares about more than just her survival, and will anticipate her needs (not just hand her a paycheck and go watch football). A man has to prove these middos thru chivalry, but a woman does not because she tends to have them more innately.

Chivalrous acts are meant to prove that a man has certain good middos that we wouldn’t necessary expect; they aren’t natural.

zogt_besser: It is both silly and incorrect to assert that men are generally more middos-challenged than women and thus need to prove their good middos more than women.

In any event, your equation of middos with chivalry is contrary to the first definition given by Oxford as well as its listed etymology, which attaches religious significance (i.e. Christian) to it. Why do you also think the term is directly associated with knights (rather than the general public) who were Middle Ages warriors in Christian countries, at a time when warriors fought under the crosses flag?

Sparkly, good question. The answer is because the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch say that it’s assur.

Rav Frand explains one possible reason behind it: A man is not likely to stare at a woman if he thinks she will notice, but if he is behind her, she won’t notice.

L’maaseh, he says that the Poskim say that today the halachos are different because there are so many women on the streets today. He says that on a date, a guy should let the girl go first. I wasn’t clear on what the halacha is if you’re just walking down the street or getting on a bus and you’re not a date.

Personally, I try to be careful when I’m walking down the street or getting on a bus not to walk in front of men, but that may be a chumra on my part (and obviously, it’s not even always possible).

It probably is a good idea though to try to be careful when getting on a bus, because unless your skirt is super-long, it may go up when climbing the stairs.