Dating Girl Tzniyis Issue

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  • #614106
    BMBochur777
    Participant

    I’ll preface by admitting that more details are necessary to properly evaluate this situation but I’d appreciate if attempts were made to answer this as is:

    I’m going out in the early stages with a great girl who I have found incredibly unique and positive maylos across many ends of the spectrum. There is an issue however, of Tznius. This is not something I will compromise on but was wondering whether or not there is a method to solve this issue. What’s the best way to bring this up (now/later, by me/by some else)? Additionally, obviously every case is different but can I expect that this issue will be dealt with once and if the relationship progresses further I won’t have to worry about this ever again.

    Thank you for your thoughts.

    #1039742

    @Bmbochur maybe trying saying a story how tznies helped a woman so she’ll get the hint gut whatever you do don’t be to blunt or she’ll get offended

    #1039743
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I am afraid I am hopelessly inexperienced when it comes to these issues, but I would think it both inappropriate and awkward for you to tell her, especially since you are in the early stages of the relationship.

    Do you know if the problems are general problems? Does she always dress like that? Or is it just when she’s dating and hoping to impress? It makes a big difference.

    If you can get a mentor of hers to tell her (rabbi, rebitzen, <probably not parents>) not ??? you, it would be the best.

    #1039744
    SpiceofLife
    Member

    What’s meant by tznius issue?

    As a rule, they say, don’t marry someone relying on them changing.

    One can marry someone if one can accept how they are right now, & hoping that they’ll change. But one has to keep in mind that they might not change, & be okay with that possibility.

    Some things might seem like a tznius issue, & are actually not, more just a different norm in the place they live.

    Definitely do NOT do what viyoel moishe recommended!!! He doesn’t know what he’s talking about (sorry to sound so harsh, but needs to be said). Whatever the average bachur would do, would be blunt. It’s not your place to do that. Even once married, this is a very sensitive area. When dating, nothing to talk about!!!

    Hatzlocha rabbo.

    #1039745
    ivory
    Participant

    This is a much more loaded issue than a bachur

    might think. It can definitely not come from you at this stage.

    #1039746
    lamud vov tzadik
    Participant

    I think this is a very complex issue. I think the best thing would be if you go to speak to someone you trust or someone who knows these issues and ask them how to proceed.

    #1039747
    oomis
    Participant

    I think you should first be VERY VERY sure that your concept of tznius is halachically accurate. There is a difference betwen her wearing a skirt that covers her knees even when sitting, but is on the short side versus wearing a skirt above her knees. There is a difference between her wearing bright colors, rather than black, brown, and beige, versus someone who wears a tight red dressd. Is her way of dressing the issue or her behavior? Those are very different things to consider.

    As you have not really expressed what your tznius objection is about, it’s hard to understand the problem. But no matter WHAT it is (and again, be very sure that it really IS a tznius problem, and not just your own perception that is a problem), then in my opinion you should speak to the shadchan who set you up, if any, or to her rebbetzin (or another female with whom she is close and with whom you would feel comfortable), and ask her to speak to her about what’s bothering you. You may find that this other person thinks your issue is not based on any halachic foundation, and will help you to see that, or you may find that she is able to get your point across to the young lady without embarrassing you.

    #1039748

    As I’m not in the parsheh yet I was just giving my suggestion however I wouldn’t recommend relying on me or anyone else in the cr try asking a ruv

    #1039749

    Spice of life I was just giving my suggestion no need to be rude

    #1039750
    ivory
    Participant

    She or he wasnt rude

    #1039751

    @ivory no need for you to get involved in this it’s between me and spice of life

    #1039752
    ivory
    Participant

    Hahahaha! The point of the coffee room is to get involved! As they say , if you can’t take the heat….get out if the coffeeroom!

    #1039753

    @ivory if you would like to get involved In the conversation ok no problem however if I have a argument with someone no one asked you to get involved you should also be careful who you insult because you never know who they are

    #1039754
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    Oish!

    Vayoel Moshe, you are one controversial username!

    #1039755

    #That’s what Shadchanim are for…

    Tell her to tell the girl that that’s one area you are having an issue with.

    I feel that tznius is something that should not be compromised on if you want to build a true bayis ne’eman.

    If she’s the right one, she’ll be happy to change for you.

    I know that I struggle with one specific area, and whoever my chassan is, if he is Makpid on it, (which part of me wants, and part doesn’t) I will definitely move away from that particular issue.

    #1039756

    @lekatain girl exactly but I got tired of arguing in real life so I argue here 😉

    #1039757

    Also you realize this whole thread is no longer about the original question but about me fighting with ivory

    #1039758
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    Viyoel,

    My goodness. Now instead of being annoyed at you, I feel bad for you. Instead of arguing with everyone, don’t you want to have real true relationships?

    I would suggest therapy, or social skills training of some sort, but I know that you won’t take my advice, so I’ll just leave it at that.

    #1039759
    ivory
    Participant

    Omg! Who’s fighting? If you want to have a private conversation this is not the venue for it……

    #1039760

    I enjoy a good argument and you don’t have to take everything I say literally and what do you call a real true relationship ?

    #1039761

    I enjoy a good argument and you don’t have to take everything I say literally and what do you call a real true relationship ?

    #1039762
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    I know not to take everything you say literally, but it is plausible that you have a tendency to argue with everyone you meet in 3D life, being that since your username was created, you’ve managed to get a significant number of people annoyed.

    How would I define a real, true relationship? I dunno… That’s a hard question for me to answer offhand.

    I’m just going out on a limb here, and saying that if you always argue with people, and say illogical and untrue things just to rile them up, no one would WANT to have a real, true relationship with you. I’m sorry if that hurts you, but it’s reality.

    #1039764

    I know how to be quiet if I need to for example

    By Dov hikind last night

    #1039765

    @lekaitin girl @ ivory if you want one of you could make a seperate thread regarding me because we really hijacked bmbochurs thread instead of hearing solutions he hears this conversation

    #1039766
    Menachem Melamed
    Participant

    Please do not take the issue lightly, and do not assume that you will change her. Do speak to 1 or 2 wise people to ascertain if it really is a tznius issue and what it shows about her yiras shamayim. If the answers satisfy you ask advice if the shadchan (if she is female) or a different female should bring the issue up now. It is unfair and unwise to marry someone with the intent to change them.

    #1039767
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    oh man viyoel moishe you really know how to make chassidim look bad.

    #1039768

    @oyoy don’t add fuel to the fire

    #1039769

    @oyoyoy how exactly?

    #1039770
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    WE didnt start the fire

    #1039771
    ivory
    Participant

    I have zero or less interest in arguing with you

    #1039773

    Oh look who woke up

    #1039774
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    I think you need a time out, viyoelee dear. Grow up!

    Ivory, let’s not feed the trolls.

    #1039775

    For some reason only the women can’t stand me in the cr the guys are neutral weird

    #1039776
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    So…

    You planning on getting married someday? Cuz wives tend to be female.

    Please don’t tell me you’re already married.

    #1039777
    ivory
    Participant

    The sad part is he’s not trolling

    #1039778

    Are you ? A shidduch? Lol jk never in a million years 😉

    #1039780
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Just wondering…

    Vayoel Moshe showed up for about two days and then disappeared and then Viyoel Moishe showed up. Any connection?

    Thanks, didn’t notice on my small phone screen-29

    #1039781

    @lekatin girl @ivory I’m going to fight hate with love git shabes to you and both of your families

    #1039782
    SpiceofLife
    Member

    Thanks Ivory!

    To viyoel moishe, sorry if you took offense. You actually said yourself the same as me:

    “As I’m not in the parsheh yet I was just giving my suggestion however I wouldn’t recommend relying on me”

    Maybe when you hear it from someone else it sounds different than when you yourself say it.

    Usually I make more effort to be polite, but here too much was at stake. If I would have just told BMbochur777 not to follow your advice, he may have listened & may have not. So I felt a need to stress that you don’t have the foggiest about the subject.

    About telling Ivory to stay out of it, it doesn’t work like that in the CR. This is a forum for people to give their opinions. Read over some of the older threads & you’ll see that.

    About your fighting hate with love, don’t you think you’re being rather dramatic. The concept is good, but no-one here is hating you. You need to chill abit.

    Gutt voch to you & e/o in the CR.

    #1039784
    ivory
    Participant

    It’s impossible to know in advance

    #1039785
    BMBochur777
    Participant

    Thanks so much for your comments so far. Is this the type of thing that if a Rebbitzin speaks to her once during the dating process, that she will listen to in the long term? Is this an issue that will keep coming up and affect Shalom Bayis?

    #1039786
    ivory
    Participant

    I don’t know why my responses go before the question. If you have someone who can talk to her and then see how she takes it. If she’s receptive and agrees to correct whatever it is that’s bothering you. Also you have to know what her feelings are about it to see if it will be an ongoing issue.

    #1039787

    #It really depends on the girl and the situation. And on how much it bothers you… Will it affect the kedusha level of your home?

    You are in a tough situation..

    Find someone you trust…

    Ask a rebbi of yours or ask a shaila

    Hatzlacha rabbah!

    And may you be zoche to build a bayis ne’eman really soon!

    #1039788
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    I agree with #poster. This issue is important enough to require Daas Torah. Speak to one of your rebbeim about it!

    #1039789
    mft23
    Member

    BMBochur777,

    I can really appreciate this question, as I went through an almost identical situation when I was dating. I was dating a girl who I found incredible in many ways, but I noticed over time that her skirts were sometimes a tad short (not very short skirts, but often I would see her knees briefly while she was sitting, etc.) I am a serious Yeshiva guy with very strong hashkofos, and to be honest, it really bothered me. I kept pushing off the issue in my head as I got to know her better. I’m NOT recommending that you do this, but at a certain point when we getting pretty serious (date #10), during a serious conversation, I mentioned to her that there was something I needed to talk to her about that was bothering me. I want to keep this post short, so I won’t go into great detail, but I said it in an EXTREMELY sensitive way. She starting crying and told me that this was an issue that she has been struggling with for a while, but it doesn’t represent who she is. I accepted that answer, but still was unsure what it meant for me. I called my Rebbe who I am very close with and told him the whole story. His response was, “are you crazy? This girl is a diamond! For her to admit to it being a struggle, and start crying about it shows how special she really is. So she struggles with it – we ALL have struggles! Everything else about her is great, right?” And it was…

    P.S. We are very happily married for a few years now. She’s a fantastic girl and I respect her tremendously. The same issue does still come up once in a while, and it still bothers me. But we work it through like any healthy married couple work through their “stuff”.

    I’m not giving you advice, as I don’t know you or your situation. (I am a Marriage and Family Therapist, and I know too many situations where people got messed up from getting terrible advice that was not well suited for them…) However, I just wanted to share that perspective. Take from it what you’d like.

    Hatzlacha!

    #1039790
    Joseph
    Participant

    Wow, totally irrelevant to your comment (which I thought was great btw) but you’re a Marriage and Family Therapist at 23 yo?

    #1039791
    mft23
    Member

    Lior,

    I’m not 23…

    And thanks for the compliment 🙂

    #1039792
    writersoul
    Participant

    As a girl, I’ll say:

    Do not expect her to change after a quick talking to. Let’s say a girl was dating a guy and she was annoyed/worried because he seemed to be slacking off in going to mincha. (The exact thing isn’t important, just that there’s something he does that she doesn’t like/believe is correct.) Should she assume that you will hear a nice shmuess from your rebbi and immediately change? Same in this case. No change should be made for anyone but oneself or it will never stick and will never give real satisfaction. Imagine (assuming, for the moment, that the problem is that her skirts are too short, just ledugma) that you somehow get across to her (already difficult to do without potentially being very offensive and judgmental but definitely possible) that the skirts are an issue that is holding you back in the relationship. She really wants this to happen, she thinks you’re a great guy, so she says yes, I’ll change. There’s a sale on tea-length dresses and calf-length skirts and she immediately buys out the store. If she is ONLY changing so that you’ll move from date four to date five, and then eventually to proposal and wedding, then what happens in a year (if that long) when the whole glow wears off, there are bumps in the road, and she thinks to herself, this is the guy I changed for? This change will be entirely tied up in externals and if the externals seem no longer quite as worth it, only resentment can come. Or, even if you are idyllically and peacefully married for many years, she will not feel that the new longer skirts are something that she wants to wear, something that she chose because it was intrinsically important to her- they will be something that was placed on her as a burden and from there, resentment can build up as well. Unless she can summon up real desire to change that has NO connection with the guy she’s dating, no change will last with good effects.

    It is very possible (though only after you know each other quite well, as in mft23’s case) that you can broach this topic in a way that will be well-received. It will be difficult, though, and even afterward, you can’t rely on a bandaid solution to erase the issue from existence.

    Good luck!

    #1039793
    oomis
    Participant

    writersoul +1

    #1039794
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    writersoul – With all due respect, I think that’s a great answer but I really don’t think it should apply here. We are talking about halacha. Everything you said could be 100% true for preferences and natural tendencies, but I don’t think you can say that about something halachically dictated. If a girl is wearing skirts that are not halachically appropriate, the appropriate “wake up call” may be just what she needs. I agree that it should not be a casual date conversation but I would seriously worry about a girl who thinks of this as a “favor” or “accomodation”

    For example, I live on meat, my husband doesn’t like it. When we got married I was all “into” making all the foods he likes and leaving my likes aside. Eventually (15 years later) I realized that it would not be the end of the world to make what I like and let him eat something else, or vice versa.

    Also, he listened to the radio but I didn’t. We decided we would not have the radio playing in the house when I’m around, and I know that it has been hard for him sometimes even though he complies. On the other hand, when we got married I hadn’t gone to a movie in years. He asked, (as only a pure hearted BT can) what is the point of not watching movies in the theater but still renting the ones you want for the VCR. I knew he was right halachically, it wasn’t just a preference of his, and it was the push I needed to move forward. I said, “You are right. It is just another one of those things that ‘everyone does'”. Years and years have gone by and if I ever miss renting or watching movies it wouldn’t occur to me to “blame” him. He was the impetus for growth. Not only that, but I CREDIT him for all the movies I have NOT seen and need to understand that what we do in regards to our spiritual growth is for OUR benefit and those who bring us there should be blessed. So many times in marriage we push and pull each other, too many singles are looking for someone who is always on the same page.

    How the above poster should handle this is a different issue, I just felt compelled to comment on your presentation of tznius K’Halacha as style change.

    I would also feel concerned about marrying a girl who only sees improving on her tznius as an accommodation to move from date to date. Unlike the wife of mtf23, a girl like that does not sound like someone with the level of sensitivity toward the mitzvah that this boy is looking for.

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