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was just wondering what yeshiva/ BY type people feel about the following :
1) going places like bowling or shooting pool on dates
2) complimenting guy/girl on clothing (i.e. nice tie , or nice necklace) if Ok what date is it acceptable?
3) guy walking girl out of car when returning from date
4) sharing a portion of food when eating out
5) Is it ever allowed to be asked to be taken home ?
I believe I would be labeled a “yeshiva type”…. this is my opinion and I speak for nobody but myself.
I am, B”H, married for 15+ years, so it has been while since I’ve been on a date, but here goes.
1) going places like bowling or shooting pool on dates
I took girls bowling and to shoot pool, if they were agreeable to do so. I didnt think there was anything wrong with it then, nor do I think there is anything with it now. It depends WHERE you go to engage in these activities.
2) complimenting guy/girl on clothing (i.e. nice tie , or nice necklace) if Ok what date is it acceptable?
If I saw the girl was wearing a nice piece of jewelry, I would comment, if I felt it appropriate at the time. If she was wearing an unusual article of clothing, for example a top with a “different” pattern, I would have commented on the pattern if it fit into the conversation.
3) guy walking girl out of car when returning from date
I always thought it was considered good manners. I think it is good manners to to walk ANYONE out of a car.
4) sharing a portion of food when eating out
I wouldnt share food with anyone (well, perhaps my wife and kids), I dont think it is good hygiene (in fact I think it is disgusting, but just a personal feeling). If you meant, ordering a dish and splitting it PRIOR to eating, thats something else entirely. Why not?
5) Is it ever allowed to be asked to be taken home ?
Thats like asking, is it ever allowed to insult someone. Instead of being asked to be taken home, I have no problem with either a boy or a girl stating that they are feeling a bit tired and would like t be taken home/go home shortly. It is probably better to utter a little white lie than to humiliate someone by saying “take me home”.
My 2 cents.
1) going places like bowling or shooting pool on dates
When I was dating, I quickly tired of lounges, walks in the park and similar activities. I regularly went bowling and to shoot pool. I always asked the girl if she had a problem with it first and always avoided “seedy” places. When I was dating (more than 15 years ago) Chelsea Billiards was a favorite. Is it still around?
2) complimenting guy/girl on clothing (i.e. nice tie , or nice necklace) if Ok what date is it acceptable?
If I saw the girl was wearing a nice piece of jewelry or an interesting article of clothing (for example, a jacket with interesting writing or interesting pattern/design), I would comment somehing like “thats an interesting sweater, that design is different” or something similar. At the very least, if gives you something to talk about, perhaps talk about something you like.
3) guy walking girl out of car when returning from date
I always thought it is the mentchlech ting to do. Not only for a date, but anyone you drop off, walk them to their house.
4) sharing a portion of food when eating out
I assume you mean ordering a single portion and dividing it? I see nothing wrong with it. If you mean, actually sharing food, I think its disgusting, in general.
5) Is it ever allowed to be asked to be taken home ?
There is no mitzvah to waste your or your dates time if you feel that it is a total waste of time. Then again, there is no mitzvah to insult anyone either. Saying “lets go home” in a not nice way is akin to slapping them in the face. I’m sure you can come up with something like, “its getting late and I have to be up very early tomorrow, perhaps we can leave shortly” so that the person gets the hint without being slapped in the face. Of course, if the person doesnt get the hint, you can repeat what you said. He/she will catch on.
was just wondering what yeshiva/ BY type people feel about the following :
1) going places like bowling or shooting pool on dates
2) complimenting guy/girl on clothing (i.e. nice tie , or nice necklace) if Ok what date is it acceptable?
3) guy walking girl out of car when returning from date
4) sharing a portion of food when eating out
5) Is it ever allowed to be asked to be taken home ?
Answers:
1) depends on the girl if she is comfotable
2)acceptable even on first date
3)yes its a gentleman theing to do
4)its ok to tast from one another…
5)NO… unless if he is rude…
I hope this clears up things for you…
Just my two cents:
1) not if not engaged or agreed to get engaged
2) after dropping shadchan, but be short
3) always
4) married only
5) yes, but only if you are willing to explain why at that point
Good post
1) No reason not to go bowling. I never went into a pool hall, so I have no clue whether or not this is appropriate.
2) No reason not to compliment someone.
3) Guy should absolutley be a gentleman and walk the girl out of the car.
4) After one or two dates, I think it is acceptable.
5) The only situations where it would be acceptable, would be if the girl were honestly not feeling well or if the guy were not acting appropriately.
1) Inappropriate for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel
2) Inappropriate for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel
3) Inappropriate for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel
4) Inappropriate for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel
5) Inappropriate for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel
Its a confusing world out there.
Response:
1) Like you said in your follow-up, there is a tznius problem. Additionally playing pool is not an activity engaged in by a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel.
2) Not tznius to talk to a female (non-family) about her clothes.
3) Opening door for your female date is a pure liberal American shtus. This “chivalry” business has no basis in Yiddishkeit.
4) Germs (and doesn’t pas for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel)
5) I misunderstood your point. I take no position.
Certain elements will call me a “fanatic.” I’ll happily take my punches for whats right.
UJM:
Chivalry has no basis in Yiddishkeit? What on earth do you call Aishes Chayil? Is there an explicit Torah source for opening the door or walking a girl out of the car? Maybe not. That’s no excuse not to be a gentleman. Going above and beyond never killed anyone, not is it inappropriate.
Also, for the record, such chivalry would actually be considered more CONSERVATIVE. “Liberals,” as you would call them, would more likely be offended by the notion of chivalry as it has connotations of females being the “weaker” gender. But I wouldn’t want to get in the way of your blaming everything on liberal Americans, so by all means…
Hmmmm….those girls who are worried about wearing a seat belt and accentuating her assets should sit in the back seat preferably with a sheet over her head (for modesty reasons).
I once went on a date and the boy told me that for tznius reasons he does not open the door for women. While I respected his way of doing things, I knew that this was not the way I was raised, and the boy was not for me for other reasons in the end. My husband opened the door for me when we were dating and he still does (Bli ayin horah).
Oh…and I also feel that it is not tznius to compliment the girl on her clothing, unless you are engaged. Not a psak, but just my opinion.
illini, I agree with ujm regarding chivalry. Additionally, a man cannot walk behind a woman, putting to rest many chivalry situations. This whole chivalry business is a purely secular idea, something our Zeidas, pre-America, certainly had no place for, and Bnei Torahs today do not engage in.
lyillini, and if its a matter of “going above and beyond”, why not have the lady open the door for the man? Because that doesn’t conform to the “proper” definition of being a “Gentleman” as defined by secular America.
Unlike zly
illini, I don’t have it in front of me now, so don’t act upon it yet without first consulting your local Orthodox Rabbi, but I am fairly certain that we pasken that if there is a man and a woman on a sinking boat and only one could be saved, you save the man first. (The opposite of the “chivalry” demonstrated on the sinking Titanic.)
I think the reason mentioned is because of the responsibility’s incumbent upon a man. (Same as why the brocho sheloi usani isho is made.)
The question (3) was to walk a woman/date back to her house after the date not behind her, with her. Who do you think we are, Manoach?
The seatbelt thing is happening more and more. I don’t know where the girls get it from (B”Y or sem teaches it? Or it’s a peer thing, that their friends say not to wear one?) but it doesn’t just happen on dates. I’ve given rides to young girls (and I’m an old married man with kids of my own, though of course that doesn’t mean the relevant issues don’t exist) and had my kids ask me why our passenger (sitting in the back, not in view of my mirrors either) was not wearing a seatbelt. I wouldn’t have known that this was why except that she answered. I have other situations where it may have been more justified (relative girl sitting in the front) but I hope that the justification comes from a daas torah.
Joseph, none of what you have said adequately explains why a bochur cannot open the car door for a woman, and especially why doing so would be inappropriate. At very best, halacha goes neither way (assuming that the bochur figures out a way not to walk behind her).
smart, disregard #4 response. I thought you meant eating off each others plates (as you are eating.)
Illini07, Oh how offensive to bring up such “ancient” halachas that offend our 21st Century liberal American sensibilities! How controversial! What will the shkutzim think of us now? I think we all better hide under our desks (after quickly locking the offending gemorah or shulchan orach in the closet)! Maybe we can all simultaneously issue an apology for harboring such pre-historic (i.e. before the feminist movement corrected all our age-old errors) ideas.
I agree with Ujm. Todays generation is nebach falling so fast b4 you know it jewish kids will be mistaken for non-jewish kids.
today every question that comes up pple have an opinion on it as if they are poskim and not only that but there are all types of heterim for every thing that in normal surcomstances should be asur.
so why do we need all this do you think that when our gradparents were in shidduchim they had all these questions abt. whats appropriate and whats not? no, we are becoming so integrated in the american lifestyles that we think its normal.
personally I think its very sad that a jewish bochar feels its ok to copy the goyim for dating purposes and take a girl to play pool! I mean i’m sorry its just wrong and totaly not tzinius and you can come up with much better ideas just use your head thats what its there for.
Joseph you 100% right! You do have to save the man for he is pitiful and helpless, As for the woman, she is strong willed and can take care of her own.
Dont call it Chivalry. Call it decency. Is a man on a date nothing more than a taxi driver, to drop off his fare at the curb and drive away? Should he perhaps yell from the car, “good night”? Should he sit in the car like a bus monitor waiting for the door to open and she gets inside? the couple has spent the last 3-4 hours talking about who knows what, suddenly it is not tznius to walk the girl to the front door, say thank you it was a pleasant evening and good night?
If it is not tzniusdik to walk a girl to her front door, after spending 3-4 hours talking in a darkened lounge, walking in the park (where there may be issues of yichud) then perhaps sit ins would be more appropriate with parents sitting in the next room?
Pool and pool halls have a certain stigma attached to them because of the imafe that comes to mind when it is mentioned. There are many dignified Billiard rooms one can attend. A hotel lounge is essentially a dignified bar.
Instead of saying stupid things like ” this is assur, not tznius”, this is assur not “torahdik”, this is muttar because it is appropriate think about the situation. Not every hotel lobby/lounge is appropiate and not every Billiard room/pool hall is inappropiate.
While the term chivalry has a relatively benign dictionary definition, the way it is traditionally practiced in Western Society and culture is at complete odds with how we Jews conduct ourselves.
it matters what number date your on, what type of guy your dating, the place….
however in all five questions tniyus may come an issue…
but again in matters the whole situation
Zalman. Call it what you want. If it would be called “mentchlech” would that make it any better? Why is calling it chivalry making it worse?
yoshi – When you are on the Titanic, they’ll let you fend for your strong willed self, as the others are put on the rescue boats. Let us know the view from the bottom of the ocean.
jphone – Is a taxi driver uncourteous for not walking you to your door? Does your brother walk you to your door after dropping you off, after giving you a ride?
Darkened lounge? I dunno what your religious affiliation is, but if thats where dates are going in your circles…
Dignified Billiard rooms? Sure; and there are “dignified beaches” as well.
Joseph – you are ignorant. I hope i am on a boat with you and another woman, so i can save her and toss you overboard
UJM:
In what way does your last post have ANY relevance to what I said? Respond to my argument, not to whatever image you have (likely incorrectly) painted of me in your head.
yossiesiegel, you pop up everytime you need to defend your other username yoshi (which are both registered on the same day, and the only time you comment is in defense of yoshi.) But don’t worry, you would never get the chance to. Halacha will always prevail and you’ll be left behind with yoshi on that sinking boat.
There are MANY reasons why the goyish practice of chivalry is incorrect. When you open a door for a woman to go in first (as is practiced in a chivalrous society) you are walking in behind her. Not tzniusdik. And like someone pointed out previously, when it comes to saving lives halachicly we are obligated to save mens lives first, if its an either/or situation (unlike how it would be done in a chivalrous society.)
illini,
others have responded to you. I agreed with them and added my analogy of your views.
yossi,
can’t break the law. if the law is hes first, he gets saved first. even harboring thoughts of murder as you profess (out of anger, obviously, at the the law having been expressed to you) is treason, which will get you and your yoshi stringed up. so you two would never make it.
Okay, since yoshi+yossi are taking extreme offense at halacha (as often happens around here when something doesn’t conform to someones American egalitarian Torah, 21st century edition), I did some quick research.
Mishna Horayos 3:7
A man has privilege over a woman, to be saved from death and to return his loss.
Rambam (on aforementioned Mishna):
You already know that men are obligated to keep all of the commandments while the women are obligated to keep only part of them, as is explained in Kiddushin (Mishna 1:7) and he is [thus] more sanctified and therefore the man’s life is saved first.
Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 252:8
And if they both [a man and a woman] are going to drown in a river, one should save the man first.
UJM:
Your post still makes no sense. And as I pointed out, chivalry is in NO WAY a “liberal” sensibility. So keep playing the “liberal” card if you will, but it only reinforces your lack of any intelligent contribution.
Guys should ALWAYS walk the girl to her door. It is simple good manners and a safety issue as well, for many young women. Bowling is fun, can be a real ice-breaker (especially the horrid way I bowl, which was always good for a few laughs), but I think in general,with few exceptions, a pool hall is not the best place for a frum couple to go. Many of them are known hangouts where a great deal of drinking is going on, as well as inappropriate language and smoking. there are better places to go.
The issue of sharing food is a dicey one, since it is considered so intimate an action, that it is a hilchos niddah issue. I do think that if a specific dish is ordered at dinner, such as a pupu platter or chummus platter, dishes which are designed to be shared, that it could be less problematic for one who is concerned about it.
As to complimenting on a date – well, there are compliments, and then there are COMPLIMENTS. Telling a date he or she “looks nice,” is not the same thing as saying, “WOW! You look HOT!” The former is a simple and thoughtful thing to say, the latter, however, is best said (if that expression is used at all) to one’s spouse, if one is so inclined, when not during a niddah time. I do get annoyed when I hear that a girl got all angry at her date for having told her she looks nice. Someone posted something liek that in The Jewish Press some time ago, and I thought the girl got all bent out of shape over nothing. She should have been appreciative of the fact that the guy realized the effort she had made to look attractive on the date. the only proper response, is a simple THANK YOU!
If the date is going really badly, I don’t think there is anything wrong with pleasing a headache, not in a nasty way, though, and asking to go home a little early. Still, if it just is a matter that it is not clicking, I think everyone should give a date a real chance. In my opinion, however, it is wrong to get a guy to spend a lot of money first and THEN decide to have a headache. My daughter has been on several dates with different fellows who were not for her for wahtever reason. She nonetheless was an interested and interesting conversationalist, a polite and friendly person, and no guy could ever say he had a bad date when he was with her, even if it was not the right shidduch for either of them.
UJM, a shanda, you mean to say you actually ride in a car with a girl without a mechitzah? Where did you grow up? Don’t you know you must have a mechitzah plus she must ride at least two rows behind you. You need a minivan or an SUV for a date. What is the world coming to? This is how yeshiva boys act?
I remember when
Iwas dating it was proper for the boy to call the girl directly and set a date. Today, in many circles (nOT JUST BY THE CHASSIDIM), the shadchan arranges the meeting zithout the tzo young people speaking by phone beforehand…Nameless, it may be just as well, since I have heard of times where it fell apart on the phone over narsihkeit, and they never even went out at all. Better they should at least meet so nobody is hurt even before it starts.
“darkened lounge”. It is a fact of life. Most nice hotels have the lights dimmed in their lounge. Guess what, they serve drinks there too. Just like a bar. the difference is the type of atmosphere and behavior that goes on. The same is true with Billiards rooms and pool halls. They can be smoke filled, alcohol flowing, loud and disgusting places (which is the image most people assume), and then there are those that are quiet, and believe it or not, dignified. These places exist.
UJM: Did you make up a mishna berura about this topic too?
I’m not sure what BY type is but I’ll add my 2 cents…
1) going places like bowling or shooting pool on dates
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that as long as you both enjoy bowling and shooting pool.
2) complimenting guy/girl on clothing (i.e. nice tie , or nice necklace) if Ok what date is it acceptable?
Depends on the compliment. If a guy uses the adjective “nice” I think that’s pretty kosher. Any date is okay. I’m confused now.
3) guy walking girl out of car when returning from date
That’s sweet.
4) sharing a portion of food when eating out
As a germaphobe I’d never do that on a date until I got to know and like the guy (and know that he doesn’t have cooties).
5) Is it ever allowed to be asked to be taken home ?
If you’re wasting his and your time, please do. Do it in a polite way.
1) going places like bowling or shooting pool on dates
2) complimenting guy/girl on clothing (i.e. nice tie , or nice necklace) if Ok what date is it acceptable?
3) guy walking girl out of car when returning from date
absolutely, to her door
4) sharing a portion of food when eating out
5) Is it ever allowed to be asked to be taken home?
Opening the car door for the woman on a date is a purely secular custom. A Yirei Shmayim doesn’t engage in that goyish copycat practice.
It is similar to the secular culture custom to open a building door for a woman and allow her in first. (Which is even worse, since a man cannot walk in behind a woman.)
In fact, by Yidden the correct practice is for a woman to allow a man to go first.
If someone here thinks opening a door for a woman is a matter of ‘respect’, please explain why the standard practice should not be for the women to open the door for the men as a matter of respect.
To Mr. and Mrs. Joseph UJM : Keep thinking what you will about my screen name, I don’t have to defend myself to a “couple” of naive juveniles. You just sound foolish and ignorant having no intellectual comeback to provide us. That also goes for when you’re calling people “liberals” who disagree with you or tell you off.
Hope you “both” are enjoying the YW coffee room, oh, and good luck on your marriage, you two deserve each other 🙂
Maybe according to some of you people posting one should stop ringing the doorbell to pick up the girl for the date. You should just honk when you are outside so chas vshalom you shouldnt have to GASP walk a girl to your car. And to the genius who compared a date to a cabbie or your brother, seriously?? Would you ask your cabbie to marry you? How about your brother? Walking a girl to her door is no different then walking and talking with her for the last four hours!! Contrary to what some people here believe, there is no Isur to be a gentleman.
As far as this seatbelt issue is concerned, I seriously doubt any QUALIFIED halachic authority would EVER permit a girl to not wear a seatbelt. V’nishmartem me’od….
A good day to all…
yoshi dear, Is Mishnayis, Rambam, and Shulchan Orach an ”insufficient comeback” to you?
maybe its just me but arent “pool tables” where ‘bums’ hang out? a little innappropriate place to go on a date, where the guys are basically on top of the girls.
and complimenting clothes: if it comes into the conversation, then do but its how you say it- eg: “my my, you look glamorous tonight!”-its a bit to dramatic and way to ‘mushy’. however, if you’d say “that top looks really nice on you.”-your just giving a small compliment, with out getting to personal.
“Hope you “both” are enjoying the YW coffee room, oh, and good luck on your marriage, you two deserve each other :)”
Yoshi(Yossi?),
I assume that you’re just a teen; please find more appropriate ways to express yourself.
Everyone is talking about a tznius issue on this topic. What about the shomer negiah issue that goes on in the dating world. (Yes even in the frum world of dating)
In very frum circles not opening a car door is one of the subtly telling things that is used in determining someones hashkofos. If a girl rejects a date because he didn’t open the door for her, the boy will actually be happy he didn’t fall into such a shidduch. Obviously the girl will almost never verbalize that shes rejecting it because the door wasn’t opened for her, as that would come across as being petty. Sometimes she will not even acknowledge to herself that is the reason, but subconsciously not agree to another date for that reason. Either way the boy will be happy that such a shidduch didn’t proceed.
Mr & Mrs yossi yoshi, yes it is so babyish to use something over 3000 years old, like say the Torah, isn’t it? Well you’ve already made that point loud & clear with your sad commentary. Obviously (c’v) shulchan orach is “ignorant and not an intellectual comeback” in your intelligence, to quote you.
Oh, and btw you SLIPPED UP! You said “no intellectual comeback to provide US.” US! US yoshi & yossi. Sorry for blowing the cover.
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