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Yitzchokm – the comparison was fine. There are kosher pretzels, and treife ones. One is muttar and one is assur. There are even times that eating pretzels may be a mitzvah. Same with the hand-holding. (Sam2- – hey, we agree!)
Your comparing an act (holding hands with one’s wife) that you are forbidden to do at all (besides the wife, which is “mutter”) to an act that Jews can do at any time.
Was there logic in that statement?
Holding hands is avak arayos? Wow.
yitayningwut – in the way he meant it – with an ervah ? yes.
Sam, logician,
How would you explain the concept? Just because somthing is kosher, doesn’t mean you should do it. As men we have obligations. That we must do. Other actions, while mutter, should, according to “ger” thought, be avoided.
Yita-
Other then with your wife- yes. It most certainly is.
yitzchokm: The subject of this little discussion is holding hands with your wife. No one else. Your point is irrelevant.
Your mistake (mainly) is viwing these areas as things to be avoided, that “happen” to be muttar with your wife. (or as you so wonderfully put it, “obligated” to do. Reminds me of 1984 – “your duty to the party”.)
I’m hoping you’re not married, and will iy”H get a decent shmuz. If you are…..
You’re right, I misunderstood. But OneOfMany is right.
OneOfMany-
Question: What does the concept of “kodesh atah b’muter luch” refer to?
What do our chzal mean when they say to “refrain from engaging in excessive conversation with one’s wife”?
There is, obviously, a concept which tell us that although something is mutter for you to do, refraining from doing so is praiseworthy.
Logician-
Frivolously, according to Ger they are to be avoided, unless obligated to do so.
Frivolously eating pretzels, according to all is ok.
My personal life is of no relevance to you. Thanks for asking.
I, for one, am not a fan of the ger way of life. But that’s their minhug. saying it’s non-nonsensical is foolish. They have there me’koros and rabunnim.
yitzchokm: First off, I was just attacking your attack on Sam2 because it made no sense. That’s all. Second, I think you are misunderstanding the point of contention here. I, for one, have no problem with the Gerrer way of life (inasmuch as it doesn’t affect me, of course). The issue is that it’s being touted as the standard that everyone really should be complying to. Their interpretations may be valid, but are no more or less than anyone else’s. So to say that the Gerrer way of life has more intrinsic kedusha and tahara is very condescending and unfair.
The idea, whether its applicable here or not, that by refraining from an otherwise permissible activity can be an act of extra kedusha, is a valid idea.
Not everyone applies the idea that way. So it isn’t necessarily valid by everyone.
Is there really a point to arguing as to whose avodas Hashem is superior? Everyone does what they have to do for themselves. There is no universal rating scale. We are all striving towards the same goal – why do you care that my methods are different?
OneOfMany-
I stand by my comparison in reply to Sam. His comment,comparing the subject to pretzels is wrong.
The ger way of life was being ridiculed by this forum, which is wrong. It’s not being touted as being the standard for others to follow. Proof is that most still have no idea what that standard is. (Sorry to say, but I doubt you have a clear picture.)
Still, I believe it’s fair to say that living as a porush, even wrongly so, has more “intrinsic” kedusha and tahara then other lifestyles.
I’m not sure why this topic is being discussed at all. It is a very private matter. I held out posting almost a week because of this.
I know it was being ridiculed, and I don’t stand by that. However, I do stand by the point that Wolf was trying to make. I don’t think one way of life is intrinsically more kadosh because people can achieve kedusha through different ways. And to my mind, holding that such a lifestyle is the standard and that it is inherently better should go hand in hand. Because thinking it is inherently better but NOT a universally applicable standard is just incredibly bigoted.
YitzchokM and others:
IF the rumors I’ve read are true, I do NOT believe that there is any mikor in our holy Torah for these practices, and therefore these “chumros” are misguided and wrong and there is NO basis to say “that’s their mesorah and it’s okay”. Far from it, in fact.
It is absolutely not okay to condone those “chumros” AT ALL (forget “gold” or any other “standard”) IF those “chumros” are against the Torah, which it seems quite clear that they are against the Torah.
Regarding Kadesh Atzmicha BiMutar Lach and Al Tarbeh Sichah Im HaIshah as regarding one’s wife, any chumrah in these areas affects the wife, and could be extremely detrimental to the wife. So an ultra-competent and unbiased Rav MUST be consulted before taking on any hanhagos that can potentially cause such great and life-long harm to anyone, CH”V.
Particularly regarding speaking to one’s wife: a major part of the connection between a husband and wife is the day-to-day communication between husband and wife EVEN, AND ESPECIALLY (to an appropriate extent), “small-talk”. In fact, the retellling after 120 years of “afilu sicha kallah sheBein Ish LiIshto” is a POSITIVE, in that it is a ZECHUS for the husband to speak to his wife and give her the emotional satisfaction she needs by doing so. There is obviously a proper balance, and each woman will have a different personal level of need, as well. But, again, “Aseh Licha Rav” – if you have a question, ask an UNBIASED and ULTRA-COMPETENT Rav. But don’t be improperly machmir, especially when it’s at someone else’s expense. This goes for “Kadesh Atzmicha BiMuttar Lach” as well.
Our Torah’s ways are Darchei Noam, not Darcei Tzaar, CH”V. It behooves all to be sure they conduct themselves, particularly for matters of bein adam laChaveiro and **Kal SheKein for devarim sheBein Ish LiIshto**, within the bounds of halacha, and biDrarchei Noam. Our DEAR and HOLY brothers and sisters deserve nothing less.
Finally, even if those “chumros” MIGHT have been **thought** to have been somehow within the Torah’s guidelines, AND ONLY FOR A **SELECT** FEW, that was ONLY at some earlier point in history. But given the massive changes that have occurred since then, once again, it seems absolutely impossible to halachicly condone any of this today for ANYONE AT ALL.
I too have held out on posting here because my opinion is that this should not be a public thread at all.
However, HaKatan’s post pushed me over the edge.
“IF the rumors I’ve read are true, I do NOT believe that there is any mikor in our holy Torah for these practices, and therefore these “chumros” are misguided and wrong and there is NO basis to say “that’s their mesorah and it’s okay”. Far from it, in fact.”
I have no idea what you heard or didn’t hear. But it doesn’t matter. The above statement implies that you are better positioned to judge what is a misguided chumrah and what is not than the Admorim of Ger.
The Beis Yisroel zy”a was a gadol, a kadosh and a tahor according to anyone’s opinion. Yes, the Steipler’s, too. Gedolei olam disagree all the time. This is not a chiddush. Besides which, it is not at all clear that the much-touted letter the Steipler wrote – IF he wrote it (there are serious claims that he did not) – was ever intended for the public’s eyes. It was written to an individual.
What should be clear to all of us is that we should back off when dealing with chumros, hanhagos, minhagim etc. enacted by Gedolei Yisroel, and we certainly should not be mocking, denigrating, or sneering, much of which has unfortunately been done on this thread.
HaKatan (and others): Why are you opining on what you admit are only rumors?
I didn’t ask anything about your personal life. Nor do i care. I was just expressing the idea that this isn’t some theoretical conversation, and has strong implications if you stand by what you wrote.
As I posted earlier from the Chazon Ish, you may not avoid such things excessively, as this has the reverse effect than intended. We are not smarter than the Torah.
Yes, according to Ger the comparison was wrong. But that’s exactly the point – they took something which has inherent value, and turned it into pretzels (and worse).
You have a chiyuv ksubah to your wife. Whatever is nechlal in that is a mitzva, a chiyuv, and makes Hashem happy. Anything over that which one does for himself is indulgence. I asked my chosson teacher how to avoid it and he said “daven”. If you think youre being a tzaddik by following these rules, youre wrong; it’s chav li’acheirim. More then that, youre copping out on a chiyuv di’oraysoh and a very special thing. And youre destroying your wife.
Every Litvish choson teacher I’ve met (and that is very many), teaches the Rambam or others that a Talmid Chochom is only together once a month or week with his wife.
<em > This is not a chiddush. Besides which, it is not at all clear that the much-touted letter the Steipler wrote – IF he wrote it (there are serious claims that he did not)
I dont know what the Steipler said or didnt say, but I do know this every time a letter is published that someone doesnt like , its seems SOME claim its a “FORGERY”
Holding hands with one’s wife in private may take one to the highest levels of kedusha.
HaKatan-
as Mom pointed out, I don’t believe you have the right to make that judgement call, given that THEIR rabunnim are ok with their hanhogus.
Logician-
you wrote that you hope I’m not married…..
That’s personal. And very very very insulting.
In regards to the C”I, I believe the Bias Yisrol had the right to either:
Argue with the C”I, or,
Agree with him and understood that the hanhogus he implemented are not contrary to the C”I.
Toi-
compering “chiyuv ksubah” to holding hands is silly. It’s not “nechlal” in the chiyuv. There’s a time and place for everything.
Your chosen teacher said to daven. He didn’t give you clear guidelines. Ger on the other hand has such guidelines.
OneOfMany-
You are right. It’s not THE standard. It’s their standard. You standard is what you were mekabul from your rabunnim.
I believe I’ve answered your question.
I don’t believe you did. You simply gave an unsourced four word statement. Nonetheless, if your does explain it, then I ask you further explain it, since I obviously did not get it.
Once again (just for sake of clarity) my question (which you claimed to answer) was as follows:
Why does my holding my wife’s hand in the privacy of our home mean that my home is completely and utterly lacking in kedusha and tahara.
Thank you in advance,
The Wolf
so basically gerrer chassidim are the root of all evil and everyone should hold hands with their wives or else…am i up to speed? 😀
You standard is what you were mekabul from your rabunnim.
… but keep in mind that the standard you were mekubal from yoru rabbanim is lacking in kedusha and tahara. Or at least that’s the message.
The Wolf
I’m gonna get in trouble for saying this, and the difference is obvious, but not all acts of Prishus means more Kedushah and Taharah (and this extreme example is to prove the point, not to compare Ger to any of these people). The Tzedukim/Essenes/other sects were more “Machmir” than Chazal on Tumah and Taharah issues (see the Mishnayos in Yadayim). That doesn’t at all make them more Kadosh or Tahor than the rest of K’lal Yisroel who followed Chazal. Ad’raba.
And this discussion was not to bash Ger or anyone. It was to dispute the premise stated by a poster that one who doesn’t hold hands with his wife is inherently more Kadosh and Tahor than one who does.
wolf-
I;ll give you a proper response later tonight, iy’h.
yitzchokm: Yeah, well your rebuttal still isn’t logical. His is, even if it is intrinsically flawed (which I don’t think is true.)
I know it was being ridiculed, and I don’t stand by that. However, I do stand by the point that Wolf was trying to make. I don’t think one way of life is intrinsically more kadosh because people can achieve kedusha through different ways. And to my mind, holding that such a lifestyle is the standard and that it is inherently better should go hand in hand. Because thinking it is inherently better but NOT a universally applicable standard is just stupidly bigoted. Yeah, you can’t exactly play both sides.
To everyone bashing Gerrer chassidim: If husband and wife both agree to and want this lifestyle, then why do you even care? It’s their own personal life and you don’t have any right to interfere.
To everyone bashing Gerrer chassidim: If husband and wife both agree to and want this lifestyle, then why do you even care? It’s their own personal life and you don’t have any right to interfere.
Because we’re all full of the same hot air, we just apply it differently.
If husband and wife both agree to and want this lifestyle, then why do you even care?
If you are not Ger you might not know this chumras and even if you are Ger, you arent told of these chumras until a few hours before your wedding
To everyone bashing Gerrer chassidim: If husband and wife both agree to and want this lifestyle, then why do you even care? It’s their own personal life and you don’t have any right to interfere.
I’m not bashing them. Heck, a few months ago, there was another thread where I basically said the same thing you did.
My dog in this fight is not that Gerrer couple shouldn’t lead the lifestyle they like. My interest in this argument is in the aspect that was presented that my home is lacking in kedusha and tahara on the basis of the fact that I actually touch my wife once in a while.
The Wolf
Yeah, I know. I agree with your point.
MODS: PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD!
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