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“Why should your daughter be in the men’s section anyway?”
Why not?
Bochurim didn’t go into groceries etc.
The fact that someone can’t go to a grocery is more of an indication that they’re doing something wrong than that they’re doing something right.
I originally wrote a better response but I edited it because I didn’t think the mods would let it through.
Certainly not when they have a history of zitzing.
The questions presented by the opening post are:
“[1] Does anyone know what these chumros are, and how they apply or [2] anything else that would be useful to know?”
I read the first 18 responses to the opening post, and only one of the Gerrer chumros were alleged, i.e., wife must walk behind husband in public. There were lots of opinions about the chumros – principally that they are weird – but no descriptions of more than a single chumro. And most of the responses bordered on loshon hora, and sometimes from the wrong side of the border.
If they really follow what this “scholar” says in the Haaretz rag, there would have to be a Gerrer Kesuba that leaves out the “Onah” section from Sher Ksus V’Onah. I’ve been to Gerrer weddings and they didn’t have a special Kesuba.
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the difference is their understanding of what is nechlal in the chiyuv onah. according to the standard interpretation, they arent even yotzeh it.
Another reason you should always assume that by default Haartez lies.
It seems to me that they are on the madregah of malachim.
Ger may have strong chumras.
However I know some Gerer that by no chance do they keep these chumras, from their doing the contrary is true.
Its a chassidus, a chasid is more like a club member, doesnt necessary mean that the person in question will accept on himself any of these rules.
A person cannot disregard the minhagim of his kehilla.
A person cannot disregard the minhagim of his kehilla.
That doesn’t mean that some of them, nonetheless, do, including the person that 2cents mentioned.
The Wolf
What defines a kehila?
Clearly a Gerrer Chosid is a member of the Gerrer kehilla.
IMO a Kehila is that sub-group or community that you belong to.
What would be interesting if you lived in a Ger community but was not a Ger, you might be required to follow these halachas even if you werent a Ger
A ger would not have historical minhagim, and would dependd which kehilla he joined. If he would join the Gerrer kehilla, then he would keep the minhagim of Gur.
I don’t believe zsdad was referring to a convert/ger.
A Gerer might be a member of the Kehila, however does this mean that he is obligated to follow all the minhagim, only because he is a memeber?
what makes one a memeber? paying membership?
2scents:
It is, IMHO, one of the most fascinating and timely issues in halacha, and one that I have studied very intensely for years. If you look through Shailos U’Teshuvos of the Rishonim (especially, Rashba, Rosh, Maharam of Rothenburg, and Rivash, as well as other writings of the Ibn Ezra, Rambam, Mordechai; for more contemporary ways of dealing with these questions, see R. Herzog’s writings) you will discover that there are many, many different ways of approaching the topic. IMHO, to really understand the issues, you need to have a good grasp of political theory and the history of political thought. Many of the Rishonim who wrote on these issues had a very good grasp of politics, constitutionalism, and democratic and republican theory.
First of all I feel that I qualify to write a response because I’m a girl who grew up in a gerra family and I’ve spoken to my mother countless times about this topic before I got married. At first I was so angry when I heard about all these chumros that gerras present as halachos. But it’s not all how it seems; I read the article that ha’aretz posted and although they may have the halachos right, they definitely did not get the spirit of the halachos correctly and one of the basic reasons for these chumros is so that there SHOULD be more feeling in the marriage, and not the opposite. Obviously, it’s not for everyone and many people only keep the extreme chumros for the first year (or for the fist couple of years/ while the husband is still in learning) and then afterwards they will often find a happy medium that suits both of them.
Once, when a girl wrote a letter to today’s gerrer rebbe complaining that these halachos seem so hard for her (i’m not sure if she was a unmarried or married girl), the rebbe responded by saying that (paraphrased) “he truly feel her pain, but there comes a time when the couple is much older and the physical strength is weak and at that point, the marriage will have been developed in an internal way and that will remain for many years to come.”
Also: Do not believe everything you hear or read because many of them are not true and a figiment of some people’s imagination or what people just assume is an halacha because it fits with the idea (a silly example is that gerras don’t have a mitzvah tantz which obviously isn’t true). And many chumros are not kept (at least not in the US) simply because it’s not for everyone, but this doesn’t make you any less part of the gerra kehillah because it’s an understood rule that everyone takes the chumros on their level and it’s no ones business what the other one is doing in the privacy of their own home.
In this case, if the boy is known to be more openminded, than it’s highly unlikely that he’ll keep these chumros.
About the point that the steipler disagreed with many of these chumros-this doesn’t make them wrong- rather, there are many ways in avodas Hashem.
I will repeat it again: it’s not for everyone, and therefore not everyone keeps to them. (in fact i would say that less than 10% [15%?] keep to these halachos after 10 years of marriage) I don’t even think the chumros were originally made for those who are working or for those over 40.
Another important point is that the way the chumros come out in the marriage very much depends on the comedant (geras who teach the halachos and chumros to the chasanim in EY) and if it was not taught correctly, many problem could arise in the marriage, on the other hand, if taught the right way the chumros bring more kedusha and Tahara to the marriage.
May we only hear of simchos!
care to explain?
In this case, if the boy is known to be more openminded, than it’s highly unlikely that he’ll keep these chumros.
Even if someone doesn’t dress the way he did when he was in kollel, doesn’t mean that he dropped these hanhogos.
So I don’t know what you base you 10-15% survival rate?
I’m from a gera family so I know from my brothers about the 10-15% “survival rate”. This is talking about the gera in America and not in EY because I wouldn’t know much about there in this sense. If you keep your eyes and ears open you could pretty much tell, though obviously you can’t know for sure. Also, it’s possible that a larger percentage do keep some of the chumras but not to the extent that everyone talks about – (which is only for the first year or so)
To 2scents: When a gerra boy marries a non-gerra girl, it really depends if we’re talking about a boy who is more open-minded and therefore meeting a girl who’s not ger or if its the girl who doesn’t mind living with the gerra derech and therefore meeting a gerra boy (not too common). In this case, because it’s the boy who’s open-minded, he probably knows more than other bachurim his age and therefore he’s not even ready to live with the gerra chumros himself (these chumros are much easier to accept by those who are temimusdig or up to that level?). Therefore he probably WANTS to marry someone that’s not ger while still remaining in the Gerra Kehillah since those that plan on keeping to the gerra chumros will only be looking for gerra girls – since it’s an accepted rule that only those that are from a gerra home/gerra chinuch are ready to live with the strict chumros.
Chosson,
I’m still waiting for you to reply to my previous question to you. You commented:
You don’t appreciate the kedusha and tehara of the Gerrer Chassidim, Ok I understand you.
My question to you on this was:
Why is my home any less filled with kedusha and tahara because I choose to hold hands with my wife in our home? What is it about a married couple holding hands that is so intrinsically lacking in kedusha and tahara that a Gerrer home is so much more filled with it than mine on that basis alone?
Please answer the question.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings,
Yes, there’s a concept of “kodesh atah b’muter luch”
Maybe your home is filled with Sholom Bayis (I hope it is)
but for a husband and wife to hold hands albeit only at home is contrary to kedusha and tehara.
All’s well that ends well.
but for a husband and wife to hold hands albeit only at home is contrary to kedusha and tehara
This is *exactly* what I asked you to explain.
Why does my holding my wife’s hand in the privacy of our home mean that my home is completely and utterly lacking in kedusha and tahara.
*Please* explain.
The Wolf
“but for a husband and wife to hold hands albeit only at home is contrary to kedusha and tehara.”
Then you’d better avoid my house by a very, very large circle. Not only do I dare to have a house of tumah…. I also have three cats!
There, that should work. No Gerrer schnorrer will ever dare approach my door now!
It’s at times like these that I thoroughly miss MosheRose.
“but for a husband and wife to hold hands albeit only at home is contrary to kedusha and tehara.”
Silly.
nfgo3 had asked if anyone could post what the chumros are. Sorry, but I don’t think they’d get approved here. They mainly deal with issues of intimacy between a couple.
Chosson: you’re 100% wrong. Holding your spouse’s hand in your own home is fine. There’s nothing wrong with it. In fact, I’d say there’s something wrong if you refuse to do it.
If someone is a Ger male and doesnt know these Halachas and is told of them 2 hours before his wedding
How is anyone supposed to know that he is “open minded” and even if he is.
If he is told the Gerrer Rebbe said to hold these halachas, even if he is open minded it doesnt mean he wants to disobey the Gerrer Rebbe
Chosson: It’s nice to know that you can define Kedushah and Taharah better than the Shulchan Aruch. Sometimes Prishus means more Kedushah and Taharah. Sometimes it means stupidity. I could say that if you ever eat food you’re intrinsically lacking some extra Kedushah and Taharah. That’s obviously stupidity. None of the Poskim endorse these Hanhagos as an extra Kedushah. Therefore, it’s a stupidity just like never eating would be. I can’t define what makes Kedushah and Taharah on my own. And I don’t think you can either.
Let us not think that we lack the kedusha they have. The opposite is usually true.
The Chazon Ish points out that excessive effort to avoid something will lead to the exact same effect as excessive indulgence. Overly avoiding such things leads to obsessive thinking about them, not the reverse. Therefore he says we must not be smarter than the Torah, and realize that the Torah has prescribed for us the perfect middle ground.
I have been bewildered by the discussion on this matter. Clearly, the specific ‘hanhogos’ go way beyond what is expected of couples and , if someone , i.e. gerrer chassdim, or anyone else for that matter, wants to follow it- it is their option. What i do not understand is why this is considered more “kedusha and taharah”. Are you telling me that the tanai-im, rishonim, going all the way to the avos, had less “kedusha and taharah”?
Without going into detail, tevilat ezra was instituted for a modicum of restraint and yet, it didn’t succeed as a halacha- did all the talmidim of that time have less kedusah and tahara? certainly not- kedusha and tahara are not measured by chumros.
Calm down everyone and follow your own hanhagos and minhagim and allow others to follow theirs. That a godol disagreed is standard practice. Rabbonim agree and disagree on minhagim and halachas all the time. The Gerrers have Gedolim of their own that established these. Respect that. Especially the folks here that on other threads are running around demanding respect for their own kulos and hashkafa that very many Gedolim were very against.
This reminds me of the fellow who was training his donkey to get by with less food each day and one day as this fellow was about to achieve his goal of having the donkey get by with no food at all, the donkey drops dead of starvation.
There’s no mitzvah for the average person to train himself to do without something that is required for normal people; i.e. affection between married couples in private, which is shown in our Torah. And it’s not fair to the spouse. At the end, something’s got to give.
Somehow, Gerrer couples are very happy with their marriage, and their divorce rate is likely far lower than the complainers.
If he isn’t keeping the chumros who cares what they are.
Staying married and few divorces does not mean you are happy
unfortunately=zahavasdad is exactly right. just because divorce is not an option does not mean one is happy. social pressure and the society you belong to is very powerful- and again- as avhaben says- it is their option to conduct themselves as they wish and let those who are not gerrer thank their lucky stars.
i have so much to say on the subject, but i dont doubt the mods wont let me pass…..
chosson, i must say you are very ignorant to the facts, probably you are still a chosson and dont know, but husband and wife holding hands in the privacy of their homes is Kedusha and nothing less. so please learn what is and isnt kedusha and tahara before expousing your views here!!!
but i will add, the Steipler Zatzal came out very strongly against the takanos of Ger, i dont believe anyone in the coffee room is of the calibre of the steipler to are argue with him.
so without going into details, the takanos are wrong, the joke about the grocery store is sadly not a joke!!! it is the reality!!! and that is why the Steipler came out so strong against it.
as my Rov once put it, nature beckons and if we try to fight the nature that Hashem created in this world then only bad comes from it. Hashem made the world to run a certain way, intimacy is part of nature and the torah stipulates how this works, to fight it is fighting nature and IT DOESNT WORK!!!!! not for anyone!!!!
as i began, i have much to say, based on fact, out of respect to the coffee room, the mods, and the readers i am witheld from writing them, i wish i could but i cant.
“Gerrer couples are very happy with their marriage, and their divorce rate is likely far lower than the complainers.”
The divorce rate does not prove a happy marriage; ask any abused married woman. Where ya gonna go?
Whether it proves anything or not, Gerrer couples are very happy.
Then how come I know Gerrer couples who are miserable; are you a Gerrer couple?
Is there any difference between Ger and other Chassidus?
Chosson… I’m still waiting for an answer to my question. Should I take your silence as an indication that you don’t have one?
The Wolf
WolfishMusings,
I believe I’ve answered your question.
Yitzchok: That concept does not make someone with any particular Hanhaga not to do something more kadosh than anyone else. I could decide to stop eating pretzels (even Pas Yisrael and Yashan) L’shaim Shamayim. That would not make me inherently more Kadosh than everyone else who eats pretzels.
Sam,
I don’t follow your logic. Your comparing an act (holding hands with one’s wife) that you are forbidden to do at all (besides the wife, which is “mutter”) to an act that Jews can do at any time. You are compareing eating pretzelsto act of (with the wrong perosn) avack aryis. Good one.
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