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We all know how many accidents happen daily from people not paying full attention while driving.
Unfortunately we are quick to forget that driving is a privalige and not something to abuse.
Besides being illegal i find it an embaracement and a major c”h how many frum people are busy talking on the phone(while often with a mini-van filled with children!!) while driving.
I drive down one block and 4 out of the 5 cars are people shmoozing on their phones and are all yiden!!
Rabosai! what ever happened to “Venishmartem meod es nafshoseichem’??!
If it is so important to make a phone call one could buy a bluetooth (for very inexpensive)and could save a lot of agmas nefesh and unnecesary c”h!!
Please think twice before making that phonecall of how you could possibly save a life!!
Wishing you all a happy and SAFE summer!!
OK, B”H. Will do.
As it is written nafshoseichem in plural rather than nafshosecha, it is not only a responsibility protect yourself but also to protect others.
2008 > what ever happened to “Venishmartem meod es nafshoseichem’??!
This is such a naive cry, might have been from 1950s. We know better by now: who said that driving w/ cellphone is dangerous? How many people got into accidents _with_ cellphones, rather than _because_ of cellphones? You should not count “cases” of accidents with cellphones, they are double-counted by lawyers. Furthermore, most people killed in the accidents did not have cell phones! In 1960, ALL people who died in accidents did not have cellphones!! And if you take cell phones from people, you will take away freedom!!! Teenagers driving without cellphones are not able to see their faces for two years already (as they are masked in person). Also, 99% of all accidents are just nothing, especially if you are young and healthy. So, let the old people not use their cellphones! Protect the elderly.
And the saddest part is that you actually see it as a parallel.
Syag > And the saddest part is that you actually see it as a parallel.
there is no parallel, I am taking it seriously, don’t you know there are more people dying from car accidents than anyone who died _from_ covid and flu combined!?!? I hope you are not encouraging anyone to drive and use cell phones, whether kosher, mehadrin, or treif.
As I said. Truly sad.
Syag, I would be happy to talk, but you are even more cryptic than I, or your humor is way over my head. If you clarify, I’ll try resonding, bli neder.
Always_Ask_Questions,
Oooh, clumsy analogies, what fun! I can do it too!
Vehicular accidents kill people. We are implementing a Zero Vehicular Accident policy. Effective immediately and for an indeterminate length of time, a walking-only mandate is in effect. Nobody is allowed to use a vehicle. Citizens are encouraged to call the cops on anybody they see and think may be violating this new mandate, because a nation of informants is a happy nation! See that group of people over there who disagree with this mandate and want to find different solutions to reduce accidents? EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE IS THEIR FAULT! BE ANGRY WITH THEM! HATE THEM! BAN THEM FROM SOCIETY! Nobody would die ever if they didn’t exist. Because the Holy Venerated Experts Say that if nobody drove vehicles, nobody would die in vehicular accidents, and the most important thing in the entire universe is to make sure there are no vehicular accidents. Nothing else matters, because we are talking about LIVES HERE! LIFE AND DEATH! And if you disagree, you are pro-death and must love accidents.
Avram for President!!
Avram, I am glad you are getting on board! Indeed, if you were driving for “fun”, like people skiing or NASCAR racing – seems questionable activity for people who have a mitzva to put a railing on their own roof. So, I would say meaningless driving around would be unnecessary sakanah (and bitul zman).
But if you do need to get somewhere, driving is safer and more efficient than walking (and flying is safer than driving) – per mile, not per hour.
Avraham- he just blew off your mandate using his own references and stats. Hmmm, sounds familiar.
Syag, are you asking for numbers to support the joke? sure, here they are,
0.79 fatalities for driving per 100 million traveled miles on urban roads
< 0.5 for flying commercial
but higher for using general aviation – 10harder to find risk of walking – too many articles about benefits of walking a mile or two 🙂
one reference saying waking is 40 times more dangerous. Surely depends on where you are walking – downtown Chicago may be more dangerous than some other places.Always_Ask_Questions,
“I am glad you are getting on board!”
So I take it from this response that you are a supporter of draconian mandates imposed with little to no information on their effectiveness, citizens informing on each other to the authorities to uphold the mandates, groupthink, crushing dissent, and the veneration of a single issue at the expense of all others?
Avram,
I don’t have an opinion on mandates. I am blessed not to be a congressman, a policeman, or a school principal, so I don’t have to make decisions on that. I also think this is way politicized and used by parties for their advantage. Enforcing rules is a very delicate area and there are a lot of gemoras discussing whether society will accept, whether people will be confused or negligent as a result.I am more concerned with my own, and our collective community, human/Jewish obligations and what should we do.
0.79 fatalities for driving per 100 million traveled miles on urban roads
< 0.5 for flying commercial
but higher for using general aviation – 10You’re making a huge mistake, because if we banned driving, people would travel less and be safer.
I am more concerned with my own, and our collective community, human/Jewish obligations and what should we do.
So forget mandates. From a human/Jewish obligation standpoint we should not travel in cars or planes.
We were not safer before cars. Cities were full of manure, milk was delivered slow, spoiled, and probably killed more new yorkers than Spanish flu. Nathan Strauss (Macy’s, Lakewood hotel) spent years trying to convince government to introduce pasteurization. New yorkers didn’t trust science then also.
There is reshus to take common risks that society accepted as routine. Also, all together modern tech made us all richer than previous generations. So in theory this enables us to learn more and better. This would be a good reason to permit all tech. If we don’t use this wealth correctly, it is our fault
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I don’t have an opinion on mandates. I am blessed not to be a congressman, a policeman, or a school principal, so I don’t have to make decisions on that.”
Balderdash. You’ve expressed opinions about almost every single topic here on the CR, including many topics that don’t pertain directly to you (e.g., full time learners in kollel). Why the sudden reticence with respect to mandates?
“Enforcing rules is a very delicate area and there are a lot of gemoras discussing whether society will accept, whether people will be confused or negligent as a result.”
Sounds very relevant.
Avram,
I think mandates is a manufactured political topic. When Trump is booed by crazies for suggesting vaccinations, he can retort that he is against mandates. Note that in Israel, right-wing government was running public policy and were criticized by lefties. It is an unfortunate side-effect of democracy that politicians are using every issue to their advantage. USA lost 2x more people comparing with similar developed countries, mostly due to slow government and inability of the society to focus on what is important.Always_Ask_Questions,
“I think mandates is a manufactured political topic.”
Incorrect. Mandates are a real life policy implemented by those who have more power on those who have less, and I am asking what your opinion of it is. Sure, politics may be the motivating factor behind the mandates, but it doesn’t make them any less real. You carry yourself as an expert on every single topic under the sun on the CR, with an opinion on each one of them. Why does this question make you wriggle?
“It is an unfortunate side-effect of democracy that politicians are using every issue to their advantage.”
So what do you propose in its stead?
“USA lost 2x more people comparing with similar developed countries, mostly due to slow government and inability of the society to focus on what is important.”
Slow government response I’ll agree with, but not your criticism of “society”. That’s an opinion promulgated primarily on the left, who have tried to blame the citizenry for this virus at every turn. The demographic and societal makeup of the United States is quite different from the European countries you use as a comparison. A few examples: the U.S. has large Hispanic and African American populations, and the risk of hospitalization and death in those communities are roughly twice that of the white, non-Hispanic populations. Access to quality healthcare varies significantly in the U.S. depending on where you live and how much money you have. So perhaps more time should be spent addressing these structural inequalities than screaming at Jews or DeSantis.
Avram, I’ll try to answer your questions after clarify what I think is more of a priority: us doing the right thing.
Most people somehow focus on “edgy” questions that pit people one against the other working against shalom, leading to break-up of societal norms. Recall how during BLM, Russians embedded into social media to advocate BOTH for and against BLM, just making sure there will be two demonstrations fighting each other. Same with other topics. For example,
– did you check how long are windows open in your kids’ school? if they don’t want to lose heat – did you offer to pay for extra heat?
– what is CO2 level after a couple of hours of kids there (proxy measurement for ventilation)
– if you have/know someone in nursing home, did you check all safety precautions there – open windows, nurses wearing masks correctly?re: mandates. here is my thinking:
Private businesses should be able to have mandates legally. Should they do that? Businesses with a lot of low-level personnel, like hotels, should first do small-scale incentives: pay for vaccination, make non-vaxxed pay for weekly tests, transfer them to positions were they don’t interact with public. For businesses requiring skilled personnel, I personally would not trust judgment of those who do not vaccinate or mask and will use this as a good excuse to fire them.Public/medical: should be able to mandate where it is materially affects public safety: nurses, teachers. firefighters may sleep at the fire station unvaxed if they prefer. Again, weekly or twice weekly testing might be enough. Maybe let these teachers teach online and for sure disclose their status to parents, whatever HIPPA says.
In all cases, if it can be shown at some point, or at some location, that being unvaxed does not affect safety anymore (low transmission level, high immunity, mild variant), no mandate required. I would not be hiring them though and so I presume many others for the lack of judgment.
re: comparison of US v. others. You have a good point, although European countries by now have their own poor immigrant populations. US does have other advantages though – more personal transportation, larger houses, more disperse communities. Some of US advantages may work against public safety, though – air conditioning, and, most of all, distrust of government. I did not look a lot on research of comparing countries, but one that I saw claims that level of trust and unity, both government and society in general, is predictive of safety. Maybe it is simply a proxy for lack of minorities. Anyway, as any middah, this distrust of authority is generally helpful, but needs to be controlled. As we say about tefillin: the head one is divided, the arm is not: when it is time to act, there is a need for unity.
Raboisai, check out the date this thread was started!
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