- This topic has 56 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 10 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
there’s a bunch of stories about missionaries in Brooklyn, if one of them met up with you what would you answer him if he says “why don’t you believe in JC”
I’ll post my answer after there are a considerable (5-10) pertinent comments on the topic
I don’t respond to quacks.
In fact I believe it to be assur to get into theological discussions with worshippers of other religions.
me: so let me get this straight, if someone believes in your guy, even if he has killed and tortured many people, he will go straight to heaven.
him: yes, belief in him overides everything.
me: and if you dont accept him then you are going to burn forever, even if you were always a good person.
him: yes, as i said.
me: so the many nazis that accepted him, are sitting on some clouds playing the harp and eating steak and champagne, and the innocent babies, women and men that were brutally tortured and degraded and finally murdered, they are all burning forever.
him: well…yes
me: i have no interest in such an evil “religion”
but best to not begin any conversation with them unless you really know their arguments and their fallacies. but even then there is no point unless they are Jewish, then (IF you are an expert) it might be worthwhile to have a discussion.
Matthew 5:38. I want your wallet, and your pants.
No?
If you don’t believe, why should I (and walk away). If he comes back, ask for wallet & pants again.
gavra-at-work:
That won’t work, because you’ve misquoted the scripture. I think you wanted to say 5:40, which is if someone asks for your shirt give him your coat also. Ee atoh don eloh ke ain haprat.
i looked up the passages and it is not clear at all.
excuse me, i have to go to the Mikveh
veteran:
I have to admit, I’ve never seen it inside (or tried it).
You should never get involved with random quotes
One could easily quote ein taches ein , shein taches shein
I’d just ask him about the manner this mamzer was born. I think they officially revised their story, nobody believes that in today’s day and age.
The Mishnah says “Dah Mah Shetasheiv L’apikores” – know what to say, but it does not say that you should argue. Your best choice is to just walk away.
“I won’t let anyone get between me and G-d.”
(Not my own quote but I think it’s brilliant and true and so I’d use it as an answer.)
(was asked this very question when I was on a sales trip in montgomery alabama) “why don’t you believe in JC”
me: why should I.
him: to be saved
me: from what?
him: from eternal damnation
me: why do I have to be saved from that? what did I do to “earn” the trip?
him: the bible says so
me: what bible?
him: cites relevant verses from his scripture
me: thats not written anywhere in my bible – the jewish bible does not contain the books of matthew, luke etc..
him: what do you mean?
me: what is not to understand? those are not part of the jewish bible
him: oh, but it is part of the new testament
me: as a jew, I believe in a “testament”, not a new one or an old one. Just an original.
him: what about jeremiah 31?
me: (thinking, its a good thing I once read the book, you take jesus i’ll take g-d”) first of all, the phrase “bris chadasha” (I had to explain to him those are the hebrew words that were written by the navi who did not speak either greek, latin or the kings english )does not mean a new testament, but rather a new covenant and if you would read the entire chapter, specifically the pesukim (I used the word verses) that preceed and follow this specific phrase, you would see that there is no new covenant either, rather a renewal of the old covenant, but I continued, you can not read much less understand hebrew, so anything I tell you is meaningless. Perhaps you should learn to read and understand hebrew, then we can have an intelligent conversation.
him: oh
him after a silence of perhaps 20 seconds: what do jews believe about the second coming (note the tone change from why not to what do you believe about
me: we dont. there is no such concept in judaism
him. really?
me: really, really.
him: what about isiah 53?
me: what “about” isiah 53?
him: doesnt it say a prophecy of the suffering servant blah blah blah and all werent all those things fulfilled in j?
me: lets assume your interpretation and understanding of the chapter is correct, why assume j is the subject? any one of tens of thousands of jews throughout history fit the subject, he doesnt have a monopoly on being despised and beaten and besides, the chapter is not written in the future tense, it is written in past, future and present tense, oh I forgot, you dont read hebrew.
him: maybe I should learn hebrew.
me: maybe you should. here is my card if you need any help. enjoy your day. good luck.
Mod-80-
“me: so let me get this straight, if someone believes in your guy, even if he has killed and tortured many people, he will go straight to heaven.
him: yes, belief in him overides everything.
me: and if you dont accept him then you are going to burn forever, even if you were always a good person.
him: yes, as i said.
me: so the many nazis that accepted him, are sitting on some clouds playing the harp and eating steak and champagne, and the innocent babies, women and men that were brutally tortured and degraded and finally murdered, they are all burning forever.
him: well…yes
me: i have no interest in such an evil “religion””
Just to play devil’s advocate here, that argument doesn’t stand on it’s own two feet. What you’re essentially saying is that the missionary is wrong because his belief system doesn’t make sense, yet we find things in Judaism that don’t make logical sense either.
If you’re trying to refute a belief system and favor another because the former is illogical, you’d better make sure the latter is.
Or as the Ramban said in the debate, if he couldn’t prove himself to the Beis Din why would I be convinced?
By the way, as for the great miracle of the tree that they recite, the Gemara describes the son of an Amora that commanded a tree to bear fruit out of season, and was punished for it.
I have read that most rabbonim say that you should not try to argue with them.
Missionaries are trained to confuse Jews and put doubts into our minds. The often (mis)quote psukim from Tanach in order to prove their point. Most Jews (sadly) don’t know Tanach that well, so they just end up being blindsided. I was once in a Taxi in Yerushalayim with my husband. The driver asked about our backgrounds and when finding out that I used to be a Christian told me that he’d spoken to a missionary who had made a lot of sense. He told me that the missionary had discussed a pasuk from Yirmehahu which says that the Jewish people will be given a new covenant. I then told him what the rest of the perek says. That the new covenant will put the Torah into our hearts so that we follow it. See how they twist things. Most Jews would not know the rest of that perek. Missionaries have dozens of these memorized, ready to use at the drop of a hat.
apushatayid:
Jer. 31:32- if you read the pasuk inside it is clearly talking about a change in the current Torah, not an addition to it.
“?? ??? ????? … ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??????”
The Torah that was originally only in our midst, will now be deeper, it will be in our heart. The change is clearly spelled out.
Isa. 53:8- ask him to identify the ??? in the pasuk. If he says yoshke, ask him for another pasuk where ??? translates to “to him” and not “to them”.
He didn’t fulfill any of the nevuos that Moshiach is supposed to fulfill. If they claim that he said he would come back to do it, quote Devarim 18:21-22
Me: I have enough problems with my own religion. I don’t need to go borrowing your religion’s problems too.
The Wolf
Im not trying to prove or refute anyone or anything. As i said im not interested in such an EVIL religion
R’ Chaim Soloveichik was once on a train and saw a missionary working on an unlearned jew. R’ Chaim walked over and the missionary began to preach to him also. R’ Chaim answered him- j cannot be the messiah because Bar kochba was messiah. the missionary looked at him and said- What?? R akiva was wrong. no he wasnt replied r chaim. yes he was. how do you know? because Bar kochba died! answered the missionary triumphantly.
Aha!! said r’ chaim. Shtarbin iz a rayye.
DH. You are preaching to the choir.
Should point out that missionaries. Don’t knowingly try to go after frum yidden. The more an am haaretz their target the more they chase that target.
Their entire religion is based on the belief that an alma conceived and bore a son – but they translate alma incorrectly (betulah). Once that’s cleared up, their house of cards crumbles.
Me- Is G-d all knowing?
Him- Yes
Me- Does he ever make mistakes?
Him- No never. He is perfect.
Me- So He said we will be his nation forever and He will never forsake us… what happened? He changed his mind? He “forgot” to factor in a few minor details when He gave his word?
Me (theorheticaly): Believe in him? Why? I have a friend who was born the same way, so I decided to believe in him! Hey, why don’t you believe in him?
I’d just like to say one thing here, if I may.
It may seem very clean and sharp in your mind, but these screenplays that a few posters have written here do not play out in an actual conversation. Besides for this, whether you win or lose you lose- if you spend time talking to a missionary that’s a loss.
My advice is avoid these conversations like the plague. You have nothing to gain but more than nothing to lose by it. Use your creative minds not to develop dialogue but to develop excuses or even LIES (if needed) to get you out of the situation, such as by saying, “I’m so sorry but I can’t stop now because my house is on fire”, and run away.
Coffee- The promise was made to bnei Avrohom- not to the unrelated masses who believe in one of his “sons” teachings- which again is saying that H-shem changed his torah and made a mistake the first time around. The promise to Avrohom was still kept to a segment of Klal Yisroel. I believe I heard this from R’ Avigdor Miller ZT”l. He has a fascinating tape on how to answer-it’s quite entertaining.
He also mentioned that the giving of the Torah was witnessed by millions, now how plausible is it that when taking it back and giving it to another it is witnessed by only one person. (and you expect a Jew to believe that-try a better sales pitch) Also, there is no historian of the time of J that ascribes divinity to him. The claim of divinity was made a century later by people who could not have witnessed it, where as the Torah has everything recorded- the Xtians do not deny the veracity of the torah-they only claim it was changed afterward.
There was a Jewish fellow who sold kosher cheese. Said he: The difference between myself and Jews for J is that they sell Jews to J
and I sell cheeses to Jews. Good night y’all“Use your creative minds not to develop dialogue but to develop excuses or even LIES (if needed) to get you out of the situation, such as by saying, “I’m so sorry but I can’t stop now because my house is on fire”, and run away.”
Or, “I’m so sorry but I communicate only with dolphins, no missionaries”
You don’t need to answer. You can, and should, ignore them and/or walk away without responding at all.
Pac-Man, your advice is correct, but yet not everyone is patient enough just to walk away with the missionary at his heels pestering him. Missionaries are annoyingly persistent. I have before taken out my cell-phone and made a fake “conversation” with thin air to avoid a missionary when leaving was impossible (At the bus-stop, I didn’t want to miss the bus)
The fellow I was talking to, turned out to be a messianic jew. A southwestern jew ignorant of anything jewish except for a few tzatzkes the family kept when cleaning out grandmas house. When in college he was recruited by a member of a messianic congregation and at first he had the same reaction any frum jew would have, jews have nothing to do with j, that’s an oxymoron in and of itself, this fellow taught him their idea about being a “completed” jew and he became a card carrying member. I know this, because he actually called me a week after we met and wanted to continue the discussion. It took quite some time, and dozens of emails back and forth to sufficiently convinve him to call a frum Rav in his city (he lived near houston) who he met a number of times, and eventually became a mispallel in that shul. While I agree with the sentiment expressed above, that missionaries, like flies, are best ignored, if approached in a respectful manner, you just never know who might be asking and why.
My encounter took place in 1998, 13 years later we have so many more frum jews, kein yirbu, but unfortunately so many more unaffiliated and worse, jews who mistakenly believe they are practicing judaism when in fact they are practicing xtianity in jewish garb.
i just got this email
“”There is a missionary group that is delivering literature with a large “Star of David” to homes that have a mezuzah on them.The packages say that they are prepared by “Israel Restoration”
Please warn your children, and dispose of this material as soon as you find it.””
im sure this letter was sent under the auspices of a certain Godol of the city. note that it says dispose of the material right away, implying do not read it out of curiosity.
APY, what a beautiful story. We should all be prepared for that, but use it only if the missionary is Jewish, open-minded and humble, like your “salesman”.
I got the literature on my front porch yesterday. I asked my Rav if I can open it with my 17 year old and discuss with him why the information contained in the packet is worthless. He told me yes, and laid down certain guidelines for doing so. I believe, and he agreed, that more important than throwing the literature in the garbage is the ability to realize on your own when someone gives you literature that belongs in the garbage. Hopefully we are being mechanech our children in such a way, that at some point they are able to realize on their own where to put this literature.
I believe, and he agreed, that more important than throwing the literature in the garbage is the ability to realize on your own when someone gives you literature that belongs in the garbage
he Poskined that YOU may read it (under certain guidlines)with your son
dont take your personal beliefs and try to extend his Psak to everyone
a good swimmer can go in the deep end of the pool, but it is a danger for others.
Mod-80. Your reply to me highlights everything that is wrong with written communication and why it should not ever become the substitute for verbal communication. I never stated or implied that anyone should do anything remotely similar to what I did, nor did I suggest one speak to their Rav about it even if you assumed that I did. Perhaps I will begin to end all postings with the disclaimer, “dont take anything I write as advice or guidance, that is the job of your Rav/Rebbetzin. And never assume, for when you do you make an a** out of U and ME”.
youre right
actually in this case i didnt read your post very carefully and apparently misunderstood it
A few years ago I got post card Yom Kippur time saying that J is our Kappara. I figured that since our Minhag of Kapparos is an offshoot of the S’ir Hamishtale’ach, it was quite appropriate.
What are they thinking, though? Did they ever get a normal, well aquainted Jew?
I like the “Toi Story.” (couldn’t resist, sorry).
I HAVE been approached, most notably by people at my door. i thank them politely, tell them I am not interested in what they have to say because I have the ORIGINAL WORD, wish them a good day, and tell them they are wasting their time in my neighborhood.
I don’t believe in long megillahs, though i liked many of the scenarios that were written here. Honestly, I think if missionaries approached me, I would tell them to speak to Gavriel Aryeh Sanders, a former Baptist Minister who DID what they do, and then through Hashgocha Protis he came to study and understand the things he had formerly used as propaganda, became enthralled with Judaism, converted, is a frum Yid, and now works as an anti-missionary.
I once had an argument with a fired-up X-ian, who of course brought up the “almah” issue. I asked her if she spoke Hebrew fluently. No. Did she ever learn what the word Almah actually means in Hebrew, and in Jewish law? No. When I explained to her that almah simply means a young Jewish woman of a certain age (what is it 17-24?) and that it has NOTHING to do with virginity, that an almah could be a married young woman, a widow a divorcee, and it only referred to her age status, she argued with me that it means the same as virgin. I told her that the people who define and discuss the Hebrew language in the Mishneh and Gemarah do not agree, and I will take their assessment over that of the Church, and it is a little nervy to try to tell me what my own Torah means.
I believe that it was King Constantine who first came up with the Virgin Mary idea, centuries after J lived. He couldn’t abide the “hideous” thought of Mary conceiving the way all human beings conceive. BTW, the concept “immaculate conception” does NOT refer to J’s conception, but to MARY’S. The Catholics believe that she herself was conceived without the taint of Original Sin, so she would be a fitting vessel for J. Where on earth did they get such ideas?!!!
I used to meet a missionary a lot outside my yeshiva and he used to start talking to us. After we established that I do not believe in the New testament, he started showing me the Old Testament.
1) Me: where exactly does it say that a human death can atone for the generations sins?
Him: ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????
Me: that is talking about animal sacrifices not people.
Him: j took the place of sacrificial lambs.
Me: we all know that Mary had a little lamb, but that’s taking it a little far!
2) Let’s pretend for a minute that he IS the Messiah. Why should i believe that and what difference does it make to me?
Him: If you believe in him you will gain attonement for your sins; if you don’t you will be in eternal damnation.
Me: (After long conversation about Yom Kippur, korbonos and ?????? ???? ??????; ?? ???? ??? ????) — Pretending that believing in a Messiah will gain me atonement, and pretending it is him – if i believe ?????? ????? that the Messiah will come, will come any day now, and will atone for me, i won’t get the attonement because i don’t know who he is?
Him: Erm… Yes.
Me: So you are telling me, based on the scripture, that one has an obligation to know who the Messiah is.
Him: Well… no, i guess – you must believe that the Messiah will come.
Me: I do. Have a good day!
3) Is J from the House of David?
Him: Yes. See Matthew and Luke who bring down the lineage.
Me: Why is one of them 35 Generations and the other 18 (I don’t remember the numbers anymore, ???? ??)?
Him: Because one is his fathers side and the other is his mother.
Me: So I won’t ask you how he has a father if he is G-ds son; I think we’ll just leave off by noting that his mother must have been about 300 years older than his mather. Yep?
Him: Well… er – I dunno, i have to find this out.
Me: Okay.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.