Daas Torah

I have, for example, heard that the Baal Shem Tov made such a claim. In that event I would agree that it is impossible to draw an upper bound. In the absense of such claim I see no reason not to.

feivel,

I disagree with your statement that gedolim do not make claims about their abilities. The Talmud and sifrei Kabbala are rife with examples of such claims. In regard to any gedolim who have not made such claims, why would you lay claim to and attribute supernatural powers to these gedolim if they do not themselves claim to possess any -simply because their stature is loftier than yours and mine?

if you ask daas torah, even if theyre wrong theyre right. know what i mean?

No, I don’t know what you mean. Please elaborate.

The Wolf

but if you ask daas torah, first of all they are probably right,

I’m not convinced of that.

and even if they were wrong you still did the right thing by listening to them

But what if everything goes wrong? What if it turns out to be the wrong type of move for your family?

The Wolf

but real daas torah are the experts! and find a rebbi that really knows you and whats best for your family,but if you dont trust daas torah then there is no point in asking their advice

if you dont trust daas torah then there is no point in asking their advice

Do you think it’s possible that I might value a rav’s advice, but take it into consideration with other factors and not just follow it blindly?

The Wolf

and by a lawsuit you should ask daas torah,too

What I’m against is the idea that you must follow him blindly regardless of qualifications.

Of course you dont have to follow anyone blindly or otherwise. However since i somewhat understand the “qualifications” of Gedolim, and certainly recognize my own glaring ignorance as compared to them, i am quite happy to follow their directives “blindly”

wolfish: why are you making laytzunus here?

While I am reputed to have a sense of humor (I’ll allow you to judge the quality or lack thereof), I was being serious in this thread and asking serious questions.

explain to the rav what everyone said and THEN ask his advice.

And, you’ll note, I said that I agree with that, in principle. But that doesn’t mean that, in the end, when you make your decision, that you *must* follow his advice. You are free to consider, weigh and ultimate, if you feel so, reject his advice.

The Wolf

Another issue about your comments that perturbs me is how you seem to constantly attempt to frame your disagreeing with what was said by Rav Moshe, by trying to turn it into my position when in reality it isn’t my position but rather the position of Gedolei Yisroel (that I merely directly quoted verbatim.)

That’s a fair criticism, but allow me to follow up with a question.

Do you agree with what Rav Moshe? If so, then is it not your contention as well?

The wolf

P.S. Is the lowercase “w” in the signature of your last post a reflection of newly found humility? 😉

It’s a typo. 🙂 I’m not even worthy of humility. 🙂

Seriously, however, if you’re accepting the statement at face value, then you *are* making it your contention as well — just as it is, no doubt, your contention that we were slaves in Egypt, that God exists and that Rav Moshe was the Rashkbhag.

The Wolf

On the same token, if someone were to “disagree” (G-d forbid) that we were slaves in Egypt, I suppose you could frame that as being a disagreement with me. But in fact it would be proper to note that he is in fact disagreeing with the Torah.

That’s absolutely correct.

But one cannot argue (meaning actually debate) with the Torah because the Torah is not a living, speaking person. OTOH, you can argue with someone who purports to hold the same opinions.

But one would think that if you are agreeing with X (whatever point X happens to be) then you aren’t doing so blindly but that you must have your reasons for asserting and agreeing with X. In that respect, the person is arguing with you over X, even if you are not the originator of X.

The Wolf

Who is he referring to who is able to argue with a Godol, anyone?

I never saw it inside, but I’d bet a doughnut that Reb Moshe is referring to one posek arguing with another posek, and not a man on the street arguing with a talmid chochom like Reb Moshe was talking about in the first posting here.

well you never said which rosh yeshiva (other than claim he is well known/respected), so i don’t believe it is fair to compare the position of an anonymous rosh yeshiva (especially since theres no way to verify your claim) against Reb Moshe.

torahyid: You insult someone you know nothing about. The Rav zt”l was a member of the Moetzes. R’ Hutner zt”l said that the Rav was one of the gedolei hador. He was a gaon on a level you don’t understand. How dare you insult him like that!

Feif,

I know that you’re probably not an old fogey like me, so let me impart a bit of wisdom to you.

As you go through life, you’re going to find people who take joy in snide comments, disparaging remarks and outright insults at people who don’t exactly fit their mold. Their idea of shivim panim laTorah is kind of like Henry Ford’s ideas about colors for the model T — you can have any color you like, so long as it’s black.

While most people would consider it perfectly acceptable to respectfully take issue with the Rav’s* positions on varying matters, there are some who prefer to take the low road and instead simply issue snide ad hominem attacks. Such attacks, in my estimation, only reveal more about the character of the person issuing them than the character of the person at whom they are aimed.

The Wolf

* Or anyone else’s for that matter.

trying- I agree. People should follow their Rebbeim. If you are in doubt as to who you should have as your Rebbeim, then you are fully entitled to follow those who find more favor in your eyes. You have to choose somehow, and its better to choose based on who you hold is bigger, or more correct, rather than whatever the newspapers or internet say you should do.

Unfortunately, some people think that what ever a Rosh Yeshiva says is Daas Torah. Even if the Rosh Yeshiva is really a Godol doesn’t make everything he says Daas Torah. R’ Moshe that was quoted in the opening paragraph was probably talking about someone like himself. He was a godol b’torah and more significantly to us he was a Poisek. If a Poisek who’s also a Godol says something political, then people have to listen- this is true Daas Torah. If a godol (eg. Rosh Yeshiva), says something political this doesn’t automatically become Daas Torah, just like if he would pasken a shaila, it wouldn’t automatically become Halacha. The same is true vice-versa, if your local Poisek who you call just to find out your basic halachos, would say something political, doesn’t make this Daas Torah. The poisek probably doesn’t have the depth and knowledge of the torah to make everything he says Daas Torah. In every generation that Hashem created, he gave us the seichel to discern what is right or wrong; we must use it and decide ourselves how to act.

First of all, the Quote is from E”H 2:11, not 2:1 (primary sources!?)

Second, most Poskim disagree with Rav Moshe in that example (that AI CAN not create a Mamzer by definition, and that AI is Mutar). Rav Moshe claims it is because they are biased and do not use only “Torah” to come to a P’sak, but also their personal opinions!

So, we have Rav Moshe who says its possible (and has happened) that “Da’as Torah” paskened not based on Torah, but “outside influences.

Which leaves us to decide if the Posek is biased or not? Or better idea, your Rav can do his research, and based off of his understanding, come to a P’sak for you.

Trying my best -What I was trying to explain – was that perhaps when R’ Moshe says “Talmid Chochom”, he didn’t mean anybody who is a talmid chochom, but rather a talmid chochom similar to himself -one is a talmid chochom and a poisek and of course a “Godol”. Your definition of “Talmid Chochom” is too broad. Some people consider anybody learning in Yeshiva or Kollel a “Talmid Chochom”. Acc. to them, it would come out anybody not listening to a Kollel guy’s political view, isn’t within the “Torah camp”.

One can not trust an unknown “Posek” not to have Negius.

That’s why everyone needs a Rav whom they can trust to pasken for them without Negius. One of course can not Pasken for themselves, under the well-known rule of “Adam Karov Etzel Azmo” 🙂

“Dr. Soloveitchik” is an ambiguous term. Not only did The Rov earn a doctorate, so did his wife, a brother, his son, and both daughters. And both daughters married rabbis with earned doctorates.

Trying my best,

On the other hand, other Dass Torah did not support land for peace. How can Daas Torah disagree? If Rabbi A says vote for X and Rabbi Y says vote for B, what are you supposed to do? not vote?