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Is there an inyan to go to a rov, Admor, etc. to ask about non-ruchniusdige things. Like “is this a good investment?”, “is this a smart business move?”. Is there any source for doing that?
This was a machlokes between chasidishe rebbes early on. The baal hatanya was against it, but relented after many chasidim begged for it. Others advocated it outright.
As a source, the mishnah says that when one learns Torah properly, they have “ruach aitzah,” a spirit of advice.
Chazal also talk about how to invest money; putting a third in movable property, etc… So if chazal are giving you advice on how to be successful in business, it seems that this is something in the purview of a tzadik/rebbe/rosh Yeshiva
But everyone agrees on the importance of having a rebbe for life decisions, such as when and how to go to work, college, shiduchim, etc..
was there a machlokes between Litvishe Rebbes? I think most of them, traditionally, did not advise on stock selection. Although they did value chochma. R Salanter would show people some ship plan that included a new element that his son invented, and he was both proud that his son did that and also that when his son showed him the pan, Rav identified which part was the invention.
Perhaps in earlier times the “ruach HaEitzah was stronger than it is today. My experience with such issues with well-known Rebbes is spotty at best. While I have occasionally received valuable, to-the-point advice on minor matters. I have also received an egregiously wrong eitza on a serious medical matter. If on has a serious issue it’s best to consult with a a real expert. (N.B. Some Rebbes are, indeed, expert in some secular matters, but not all Rebbes on all such matters.)
We do have sources though for going into business with a talmid chacham. Then, you do the hard part and you also benefit from the talmid chacham’s advice!
Just be careful how you run the business. In Gittin in the discussion of darchei sholom that someone comes to Abaye and asks him to teach him, Abaye has no time because he learns during the day and works his field at night, so the student suggests that he works the field – and he does it by telling people at the bottom of the river that halakha is that top goes first to fill in cisterns, and to the people at the top that bottom goes first, and proceeds to fill in Abaye’s cisterns in the middle.
Abaye did not teat his fruit that year and, I presume, did not teach the student either.You might want to consult a Rav who also may have some academic/professional credentials in addition to semicha on your overall financial plan and risk tolerance BUT clearly you don’t want someone with no financial training or experience in financial markets to be doing your asset allocations or selecting individual funds/stocks for your portfolio. Your Rav may also be aware of someone in the tzibur or who davens at your shul who does have the requisite skills who you might want to consider as your financial advisor.
It says in Tehilim השלך אל ה’ יהבך throw your worries on Hashem והוא יכלכלך and He will support you. The Dubner Maggid has a mashel. A man was limping along carrying a package. A horse and wagon came along where the driver has mercy on him and picks him up. After a while he lloks back and sees that the passanger is holding the package on his lap. Why don’t you put it on the wagon?, asks the driver. I don’t want to burden the horses with my package. You are crazy. If the package is in your lap, don’t the horses have to carry it? Hashem worries for us whether we worry or not.
The above does not mean that no hishtadlus is necessary but after doing it, we should rely on the RBSO (Hashem).
I once witnessed an earnest BT asking a chabad shaliach a shaila – where to go to grad school for a CS degree. His choices were agonizingly difficult – Ivy League or MIT. I was very interested how the Rav will handle that .. He did pretty well. He walked the guy through possible considerations and suggested making a list of pros and contras and then look at it. I heard this guy ended up being successful both in Torah and parnosa.
I understand Da’as Torah a bit differently and I think there are two related points when seeking Torah advice for non halachic issues:
1- the Torah can give a perspective on all areas of life, not just halacha and psak. Hafoch bah vehafoch bah dekula bah. However, that assumes that the Da’as Torah giving advice is also knowledgeable in that area. Da’as Torah is like a calculator- it will give you the right answer but only if you input the right information. If the Rav does not understand financial matters (for example), then his Torah perspective on the subject will be flawed because the “input” is incorrect.
2- I think there are two aspects of Avodas Hashem- objective and subjective. Objective is halacha- we have to follow halacha and we have to follow the psak of our Rabbonim. But so many aspects of our life are not directly and explicitly dictated by halacha- that doesn’t mean we are exempt from trying to do ratzon Hashem in those areas as well. But what ratzon Hashem is in those areas are affected by each person- his personality, situation in life, challenges, family, etc… Two people can be engaged in the same situation, and the Ratzon Hashem will be different. Getting a Torah perspective from Da’as Torah in these areas is crucial, but the Da’as Torah is still lacking the personal subjective side that only each individual person knows. Ultimately, even after getting a Torah perspective, the decision rests on the individual himself how to apply that to his situation and ensure he is doing Ratzon Hashem. No Rav can tell him that.
As an addendum to number 2- I think there is a great risk to relying on Da’as Torah blindly without factoring in our individuality. Oftentimes, when someone who doesn’t consult Rabbonim on serious, complex, and controversial issues… that person will make whatever decision he feels is best, but will usually feel some sort of guilt as there will be consequences to that decision. Nothing is ever black and white, and they will accept accountability for their decision. But I find that oftentimes, when someone blindly follows Daas Torah, they will view every situation as black and white, and they will ignore the repercussions of their decision. Even correct decisions come with consequences, and part of healthy growth is accepting responsibility and accountability for those decisions. I sometimes feel that relying on Daas Torah is a crutch for many people to dump the accountability to the Rav who is advising them, so they can mentally ignore any adverse consequences to their decision.
It says ‘ותלך לדרוש את ה Rivka Imenu did not go to the doctor but to the Beis Hamedrash of Shem.
If you read Shaylos v’Teshuvos of some Acharonim, they mention asking experts on subjects about certain questions. I believe both Rav Moshe and the Steipler ZT”L have well known teshuvos where they give the answer as “I asked a doctor and he said…”.
I don’t see a problem
Never take advice about money (or anything else) from someone that has nothing to lose if wrong.
Kuvult,
Do you think rabbanim don’t hold of לפני עור?
Simcha > But so many aspects of our life are not directly and explicitly dictated by halacha
There is a difference between halochos towards Hashem and towards a person (havero or oneself). In the latter case, you still have a halakha, but it may depend on the personalities of people involved. What is an appropriate challenge for one person, might ruin another. So, if you are asking for an advice, you should preferably ask someone who knows people involved or provide such information.
CA: You are presuming that all rabbonim will readily acknowledge that financial and investment matters are NOT their area of expertise and direct whoever is asking their advise to real experts. One can be blindsided by rabbonim who think they are Warren Buffets and don’t hold by לפני עור.
show of hands: anyone asked a Rav about investments and what were the returns?
@AAQ: “show of hands: anyone asked a Rav about investments and what were the returns?”
I know where you stand on this matter, you have been very vocal about not following advice of a Rav on ANY matter.common,
(1) sounds like your answer is “no”, please explain why
(2) I do not understand what is the taava of motzi shem ra about an anonymous opponent? during our discussions, I quoted a number of responses to my shailos.We had some kosher organizations investing with Bernie Madoff. Did the boards ask a shailoh before, or while, doing that? Or in other financial matters?
A friend of mine volunteered his time to go thru financial statements of several long-established kosher organizations, most lead directly by Rabonim and he said that it seems that he was the first professional going thru this.
@AAQ,
[1] Actually when it comes to significant decisions such as a career move I consult with a Rav, something you derided on a regular basis.
[2] Being motzi shem rah mean the one puts out negative information about someone, in all your posting you were very proud of the fact that you are not subservient to a Rav on ANY issue and you made fun of anyone who did, for example during Covid you ridiculed anyone who ask a Rav if they should take the shot and was told not to.
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