Daas Torah

Of course he would save a Jew. My point was simply to illustrate that if a psak has good reason, its not proven wrong just because it had the ‘wrong’ result.

If R’ Chaim knew the yid was in danger, he’d save him. But if he could rewind time he wouldn’t take back the pask – because al pi halacha he was not in danger (he would just happen to have the knowledge that his life happened to be in danger).

The assumption made earlier was that since the Jews were killed in Europe, it must have been a mistake not to advise them to leave. We can debate who was told what and why, but there’s no assumption to be made based on their deaths.

see R’ Dessler’s essay on this matter

Daas Torah is not infallible. There are situations in which one must follow ones own daas.

No, daas Torah is not infallible. But of course neither is mine. So how would I know when to follow daas Torah and when to follow mine?

I know you said to (ironically) ask your rebbe, but ha gufa; maybe the gedarim he’ll tell you are wrong!

What I’m getting at, of course, is that despite a gadol’s fallibility, he still has a better chance of being right than a non gadol, so why wouldn’t you avail yourself of that for important decisions?

“Additionally (gasp) daas torah can be wrong.”

jbaldy: Are they “wrong” every time you disagree with daas Torah? Otherwise how will you know when they are wrong?

“this is a matter that (ironically) should be discussed with ones rebbi.”

You suggest one should discuss daas Torah with… daas Torah. No one can disagree with that point.

You suggest one should discuss daas Torah with… daas Torah. No one can disagree with that point.

Why not? What if I think I’m more qualified to define the parameters of daas Torah than my rebbeim are? (Wouldn’t some people feel that way?)

Gavra, see Chazon Ish, Emunah Ubitachon, 3-30, who says in no uncertain terms that accusing chachomim of personal bias is considered mal’ig al divrei chachomim. He addresses the passuk you quoted.

You might be right in some cases, because not everyone who carries the title Rosh Hayeshiva is necessarily a proper talmid chochom, but you’ve got to be very careful.

DY – When a “Chochom” breaks basic din principles, and then in the same letter claims that others did what he accused them of (when it is well known that they didn’t and he could have asked), then that individual is not Da’as Torah, no matter how “smart” he may have been. When he shows his Negius publicly, you can’t say he isn’t Nogaiyh B’davar.

That being said, it’s a very different story for a Talmid Chacham Atzum like Rav Chaim (who says himself that he is not a Posek). There it is a matter of understanding that the answer is based off of prior poskim, and has to be understood in that context. One of the examples that I like to use is Rav Chaim’s Pask that one must wear a hat for davening. This really is different for the Yeshiva Bochur (who goes in the street with a hat) vs. the Baal HaBos (who does not). The yeshiva bochur MUST wear one (as Rav Chaim Paskens), since that is “Derech Sheholchin Brechov” (As the MB says), but not one who goes out without a hat.

“While many Rabbonim felt that Daas Torah was to stay in Europe, it could have been based on the fact that they misunderstood how powerful Hitler and the Nazis were.”

Ze’ev Jabotinsky and Arnold Schoenberg both predicted the shoah in writing in 1938, and they expressed the need for every Jew to get out of Europe ASAP. They clearly had better Daas even though Jabotinsky claimed to be an atheist and Schoenberg was a recent baal tshuvah from 35 years of living as a Christian.

DY: What I’m getting at, of course, is that despite a gadol’s fallibility, he still has a better chance of being right than a non gadol, so why wouldn’t you avail yourself of that for important decisions?

You make an assumption that a Gadol has a better chance of being right even in non-Torah matters. Where does that assumption come from?

I should also add the Daas Torah giver in 1944 , gave it as his last speech in Hungary before he himself left for Palestine and survived the war himself.

Gammit

The Daas Torah I am quoting from 1944 was given in public

Why should one assume the story about the Chazon Ish and the Brain Surgery is true without proof , but assume stories that Gedolim told people to stay in Europe wasnt true and proof should be given about those statements.

Gavra, you put “chochom” in quotes. I don’t know to whom you refer, but I can assure you that I am more discerning as to who possesses “daas Torah” than it may appear. I am discussing the principle.

OK. Works for me.

Obviously I’m not addressing anyone who clearly said “it will be safe”. That’s probably best understood by gavra’s last comment. (the premise of which, GAW – by the way – is that you should ALWAYS listen no matter what, because if its misguided then that too will have been whats supposed to happen.

No, if it is misguided, then it is not Daas Torah, and we are not Calvinists who believe in predestination.

Charlie, I predicted that the Rangers would beat the other team to get to the championship. According to your logic, that proves that I have more daas than anyone who predicted that the other team would win.

Sam, the passuk I quoted (see Rash”i), the sevara peshutah that someone steeped in Hashem’s wisdom will typically be wiser than one who is not, and life experience. See R’ Dessler for a deeper understanding. (My rebbeim didn’t necessarily go with R’ Dessler on everything, but it’s still a great m”m).

charliehall: How would you expect the masses to know that Arnold Schoenberg was one of the best analysts of the European political and international situation of the time?

I disagree that “they understood the ramifications of Nazi rise to power better”.

See Rav Avigdor Miller and others on this topic.

Just for example, nobody imagined the depths of Zionist conduct in WW II, both their folly, from the very outset of the war (“declaring war” on Hitler, who then declared “now I will finish them”) and treachery (lobbying governments to not allow in Jews so that their only choice was either the gas chambers or Palestine which they knew the British didn’t allow because the Zionists had so antagonized the Arabs with the Zionist idol Nationalism at any cost).

There are plenty of quotes to look up by such as Henry Montor who refused to intervene to save a ship full of Jews because “Palestine shall not be…flooded with the old and undesirables”. Another one (of many) is “A [milk-producing] cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews of Europe”. Explicit declarations that Zionism was a greater cause than saving Jews in Europe.

The pattern that always held true in galus was that if one place became dangerous then another would open up. The Zionists specifically didn’t want that because “Rak biDam Tihye lanu haAretz”.

The Zionists know and admit all this. How dare anyone blame gedolim for outrageous Zionist treachery?

Never in history was there such a “fifth column” (the Zionists) working against Jews. They then have the audacity to blame the gedolim.

But just for the sake of fairness, leaving aside the particulars of the Satmar Rav’s case, every gedolim-basher who points out how the Satmar Rav survived should also point out that Rav Elchonon Wasserman went back to Europe to his talmidim, knowing there was a chance he would die there, even though he was already safe and could have easily survived the war and left his talmidim instead.

“How would you expect the masses to know that Arnold Schoenberg was one of the best analysts of the European political and international situation of the time?”

Schoenberg wrote an article in 1938 predicting the murder of millions of Jews. But he couldn’t get it published by anyone because nobody wanted to hear such doom and gloom. So there was no way that anyone around his close circles could have known about his understanding.

It was invented in the 1990’s after the death of Rav Moshe ZTL

It was used by Rav Dessler zt’l in a letter which refers to R’ Elchonon as “shlit”a” (1940s). It appears in S’ma (Daas baalei battim…).

More importantly, the concept, if not the terminology, goes back to Chaza’l.

“How dare anyone blame gedolim for outrageous Zionist treachery?”

The Zionists had their own gedolim.

And blaming Zionists for the Nazis is like blaming Israel for Hamas and Hezbollah.

“lobbying governments to not allow in Jews”

I challenge you to find a single Zionist, religious or not, who supported the racist immigration quota law in the US — a law that had been enacted back in 1924.

“The pattern that always held true in galus was that if one place became dangerous then another would open up.”

Actually there WERE places that some Jews could have fled to had the money been available and the gedolim given the word to flee: The racist dictator Trujillo decided that more Jews meant more white folks in the Dominican Republic, and he offered to accept tens of thousands of Jewish refugees. (He was probably trying to atone for his own massacre of tens of thousands of Haitians.) And after a year’s residence in the Dominican Republic, it was possible to immigrate to the US.

Haiti also was selling visas to Haiti to any Jew who could come up with $5,000 and again after one year immigration to the US was possible. A few Jews (under a hundred) took them up on that offer, but I do know one rabbi whose grandfather went through Haiti on the way to the US.

Dr Uri Bakay:

The term is used once in shas in Chulin 90b albeit in a different way then what it means now. Although it is a recent innovation, it definitely preceded R’ Moshe – you can begin seeing its usage circa the beginning of the 1900s in certain Rabbinical writings (e.g. R’ Elchanan Wasserman) and Agudas Yisrael along with the Jewish Observer brought it to the masses.

That is one data point. Jabotinsky and Schoenberg, unfortunately, have six million data points on their side. 🙁

I don’t understand. Are you trying to prove the faulty reasoning of the decision making process by the magnitude of the tragedy? (As if six million would have left at the beck and call of the gedolim anyhow.)

jbaldy22:

I imagine the mods don’t have a problem with Rav Gifter’s thoughts on the matter.

Obviously, the Holocaust is first and foremost the fault of the Nazi murderers. But that doesn’t excuse the Zionists for their despicable role.

Besides for the above, I saw the following:

The gedolim did not tell people to not go to E”Y; they only warned them to not fall prey to Zionism if they did go.

It was very possible that the Nazis would have reached and attacked E”Y. So advising people to go there wouldn’t necessarily have been a wise idea, just from a political perspective.

Finally, who is to say that Hashem would not have allowed Hitler in to E”Y if there had been a mass emigration there. Do all the gedolim bashers also disbelieve in schar vaOnesh? Maybe that would have been Hashem’s will and justice, in that circumstance?

Sam, absolutely. I couldn’t stand that story from the first moment I heard it. There are countless stories of Gedolim where a dream affected their decision.

The Gemara only uses “Divrei Chalomos Lo Maalin Velo Moridin” in a Halachic context — that even if the Baal Hachalomos (obviously they believed there is one) tells you that certain money belongs to a certain person, and even if he gives you a Siman that proves correct, it does not go to that person.

Other than that there are many instances of Achzu Lei Bechalma.