Daas of the stars

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  • #615905
    feivel
    Participant

    i once saw a Rambam in Mishneh Torah describing the intelligence or consciousness of the celestial bodies. I don’t recall the loshon.

    Does anyone know where this is?

    #1088761
    feivel
    Participant

    Found it

    Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah. 3:9

    ?? ??????? ???????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??. ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????. ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???????. ???? ??????? ???”? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ?????? ???. ???? ??????? ???????? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???:

    Interesting, yes?

    #1088762
    Sam2
    Participant

    Yesodei HaTorah ch 3 or so. Pashtus is he’s directly quoting Aristotle and that’s why this concept isn’t quoted by almost all other Rishonim.

    #1088763
    mobico
    Participant

    At first I thought you meant the “equivalent” of Daas Torah for those who follow the entertainment industry.

    But yes, it is interesting. Te Rambam b’Pashtus means the metaphysical equivalent of these celestial bodies; i.e., the Malach behind the star.

    #1088764
    feivel
    Participant

    Of course Sam that explains it. The Holy Rambam didn’t learn from the Torah about the nature of Creation. He quotes the goyim in his Halacha Sefer because he couldn’t learn this from the Torah.

    Phew. I almost started to believe there could be much more to the nature of the universe than I can see, or that science has so far revealed.

    Thank heaven your university training was able to explain the Rambam.

    slifkin would be proud of you.

    Personally I prefer to think that the Rambam spoke the Emes, especially in his Halacha Sefer. But it’s good to know I can still worship in the house of Scientism if I need to.

    #1088765
    feivel
    Participant

    Mobico

    I suppose you could say that but i don’t think its the pashtus. He says their daas is greater than man but less than the melachim.

    Maybe he’s.comparing the melachim of the cocavim to other types of melachim?

    But I don’t think that’s the pashtus.

    #1088766
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, pashtus? Do you know what that word means? You seem to like using it for the exact opposite of what it really means.

    Also, I’m glad to know that Dovid Hamelech had help from Aristotle in composing Tehilim. (??”?)

    #1088767
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I’m confused

    Feivel and DY, Do you beleive the stars are alive and have daas?

    Not there malach (which isnt what the Rambam says) but that they have daas?

    #1088768
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In Tehillim it’s also clear that it’s not their malachim.

    I have no idea what it means, but that’s what it says (about daas, not about being alive).

    #1088769
    feivel
    Participant

    Ubiquitin

    I must say I have no knowledge of the matter. But there is an interesting Rambam on the subject.

    #1088770
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In Tehillim it’s also clear that it’s not their malachim.

    Let’s not lose sight of the fact that Tehillim is poetry. It’s not a science text. Like most poetry, it’s not meant to be taken 100% literally.

    The Wolf

    #1088771
    feivel
    Participant

    Let’s not lose sight of the fact that Tehillim is not “poetry”, and it CERTAINLY is not: “like most poetry”. Tehillim is Tehillim. I cringe that I need to write that. If I were a sensitive person I would cry, for our generation who don’t have even the weakest notion of what Tehillim is.

    #1088772

    “Smeichim b’tzeisom v’sosim b’voam osim b’eimah ritzon konum” I believe mobico is correct about the spiritual equivalent of the stars

    #1088773
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I have no idea what it means, but that’s what it says (about daas, not about being alive).

    Let’s not lose sight of the fact that Tehillim is poetry. It’s not a science text. Like most poetry, it’s not meant to be taken 100% literally.

    Wolf, you of all people should recognize the possibility of Silicon or Plasma based life forms. Just because we are unable to detect their sentience does not mean that they don’t have it (perhaps they simply choose not to exercise it).

    To quote Perek Shira (and the Pasuk in Nechemya): Kochavim Omerim:

    ??????-???? ?????-?, ?????????–?? (??????) ???????? ???-??????????? ?????? ??????????? ?????-??????? ??????? ?????-?????? ??????? ?????????? ?????-?????? ??????, ???????? ???????? ???-???????; ??????? ???????????, ???? ??????????????.

    So I would say that Pashtus, the Rambam is learning from a Pasuk.

    #1088774
    feivel
    Participant

    I really didn’t expect that this would turn into another Gedolim-slifkin controversy (although I should have).

    Since there are plenty here who can represent slifkin quite adequately while I cannot at all represent the Gedolim, I believe I will now back out. I hope some people here had their eyes opened, just a little, by the Rambam.

    Good Shabbos

    #1088775
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Feivel

    Ithink this has been discussed ad nauseum, and there is no real information here. I was just curios what you believed regarding starts having life/daas.

    Thank you for answering.

    Dy too.

    #1088776
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    (although I should have)

    You should have. Had it not been you, I would have thought you were bringing it “L’kanter”.

    Why don’t you just close the thread?

    #1088777
    feivel
    Participant

    “Why don’t you just close the thread?”

    Those were the days.

    Alas to be among the mortals.

    #1088778
    Sam2
    Participant

    Feivel: There is no need for the snark. The Rambam himself says that he quotes Aristotle. This part of the nature of the stars is a basis of Aristotelean metaphysics. It’s not a stretch to think he’s quoting Aristotle here. It’s the simplest explanation for this concept.

    Now, the Rambam did not quote those things from Aristotle that he knew went against his tradition. The Rambam was certainly not an atheist, after all. However, he did think that Aristotle got most things right, include almost all of his theories on physics and metaphysics. So when the Rambam quotes an idea that is a direct Aristotelean idea, why not assume it comes from Aristotle? Yes, he thought it doesn’t go against the Torah, and that matters a lot. But it doesn’t mean that Aristotle isn’t the Makor (of course, Aristotle being the Makor in no way makes it wrong, either). And it also explains why the concept wasn’t quoted by other Rishonim. The Rishonim, in very large part, kinda just ignore the ideas in the Rambam that came from Artistotle.

    #1088779
    feivel
    Participant

    I never heard the word “snark” before but if it’s something like “sarcasm” then indeed there was a need for it.

    #1088780
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Let’s not lose sight of the fact that Tehillim is not “poetry”,

    Oh, for heaven’s sake – it IS poetry, despite your attempts to state otherwise. Perhaps you read the word “only” where I did not write it?

    The Wolf

    #1088781
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wolf, the Rambam seems to take it literally.

    Sam, the pashtus is that he got it from the Torah.

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