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I’m thinking of starting an organization that provides guidance, resources, and comfort to Orthodox Recalcitrant Husbands.
Our first project will be a shabbaton to promote tolerance and acceptance of Orthodox Recalcitrant Husbands, and to denounce primitive methods like excommunication which Orthodox Recalcitrant Husbands are so often subjected to. We should be embracing these precious jewish souls and showing them unconditional love and acceptance.
Can you include smokers as well, or will they need their own organization?
Electing to decline giving a divorce when halacha requires none, is a legitimate choice. Thus the causticness here is misplaced in choosing this example.
Joseph, the implication of the word “recalcitrant” is that a bet din requires him to do so.
Avi, linguistically correct but the Get Advocates have abused the term to mean any guy who was asked for a Get and declined to give it – even if no beis din rendered a verdict stating he had a halachic obligation to give one. And 99% of the cases in the news with the protests and all never had such a formal verdict as there are very few circumstances where Shulchan Aruch permits a beis din to mandate a divorce.
Joseph,
1. Please cite your sources for these assertions.
2. You are misusing the word “mandate”. The proper word is “compel”, which means beating him until he says”rotzeh ani”. No bet din today has the power to do that under any circumstances. However, a bet din does have the power to instruct him that he should give his wife a get. If he refuses it can issue sanctions against him for contempt of court (e.g. no honors in shul). This is not compulsion as he can decide to forego shul honors (for example) whereas no one can accept continual beating.
I’m thinking of starting an organization that provides guidance, resources, and comfort to Orthodox Recalcitrant Husbands.
How about Jews for Jesus? Jews for Adultery? Jews for (name the Avairah here)? Don’t they deserve some love as well?
Gavra, they can be part of the one for smokers.
There is no justification for declining to give a “get” when ordered to by a Beis Din, or even refusing to give a “get” while refusing to support’s one’s wife and children. Perhaps the only reason to refuse is in the hope the wife will change her mind, in which case the husband should still be paying her bills, and in such situations once the Beis Din rules on the matter it is over and he has to give the “get”.
On the other hand, there was a tradion of having a “Theives’s shul” and some prisons are known to have regular minyans, so why not a shul for those who are refusing to give a “get”.
Avi, 1. Which assertions? 2. I’m not referring exclusively to compulsion. I’m speaking more generally of requiring him, per halacha, to give it even if they cannot compel him. Shulchan Aruch provides very few circumstances where beis din has the authority to even instruct him to give it, if he desires not to. By default, in the absence of specifically recognized “cause” listed in the Gemora and Shulchan Aruch that permit beis din to render a verdict instructing him he is obligated to give it, he has no such obligation. And there are few causes that halacha provides that give beis din the authority to instruct him to give a divorce. Those causes center around him having a physical deformity or there having been eyewitness testimony in beis din as to his physical violence. (In the latter case Shulchan Aruch rules that he is to be given a second chance, under beis din warning that if it reoccurs he will be instructed he is obligated to divorce. S”A also specifies that if he denies it occurred, the beis din shall place an agent in their home in order to ascertain and witness the truth of the allegations.)
‘There is no justification for declining to give a “get” when ordered to by a Beis Din, or even refusing to give a “get” while refusing to support’s one’s wife and children. ‘
Correct.
“requiring him, per halacha, to give it even if they cannot compel him.”
I would trust responsible beit dins consisting of rabbis who have spent years studying for yoreh yoreh and yadin yadin semicha over some anonymous internet commenter.
Ah, yes. Unsurprising that the poster who believes that almost all divorces are “criminal” feels that refusing to give a get is “legitimate” and (I infer) thusly thereby poisoning further whatever remains of the marital relationship will have a positive impact on the marriage.
signed, a now very happily married man
charlie: We are speaking of the actions of “advocates” pressuring the giving of a Get, who are operating in the absence of a post-trial beis din verdict rendering that a halachic obligation exists that one must be given.
Akuperma, all Israeli prisons have “Torani wings”. The Dannemora State Prison in Ny has a kosher kitchen run by a convicted murderer. He also blows the shofar for the Jewish prisoners on Rosh HaShana. As for minyanim, I heard of a prison that has two: Aguda and Young Israel.
Joseph,
1. Your assertions regarding 99% of the cases in the news, etc.
2. The SA is talking about compulsion. A bet din has the right and obligation to pasken according to what they consider just. In monetary cases this is called “pashara”. If they pasken that he should give his wife a divorce and he refuses he is in contempt of court and the bet din may take appropriate action.
Joseph, As long as the husband is paying the wife’s bills (as per the general understanding of the kesubah), and if no Beis Din has been involved, and presumably there is civil divorce – why would anyone expect the husband to give a “get”. He’s still married and obligated to support the family.
Unless your “advocates” are a Beis Din, if the people are not divorced why would they expect him to give a “get”. If the man has abandonned his wife and started civil divorce procedures, the “advocates” go to the Beis Din which order the “get”.
Joseph: You are wrong. ORA only uses their methods when there has been a Psak that the husband is a Mesarev Lavo LaDin.
Can we have a community for Tax cheats and people who engage in questionable business deals?
Avi: 1. A beis din cannot impose peshara unless all parties agree to it. Rav Moshe has a teshuva stating that if either party to a beis din case insists on “din” rather than peshara, then the dayanim must strictly use din and not peshara.
2. In gittin cases, specifically, Shulchan Aruch very clearly rules that the beis din cannot “pasken according to what they consider just”, and are strictly limited in their ability to render a judgement that a divorce must given in a case where the husband expresses a desire to not divorce. The Shulchan Aruch further states that if a beis din tells a husband that he must give a divorce in a case where it does not fit within the parameters of one of the specifically listed reasons in the Gemorah where Chazal ruled a husband must give a divorce, then the resulting Get is deemed a “Get Me’usa” and is invalid.
akuperman: The husband can insist that his support be provided in his marital home and he has no obligation to cut a check for his wife to live elsewhere so long as he makes his marital home available for her food and lodging.
A secular divorce has absolutely no meaning in halacha. Halacha requires a halachic divorce be mutually agreed upon (since R”G; prior to that it required only the husband’s will). The common cases nowadays is usually not where the husband abandoned his wife and started civil procedures but rather where the wife did that. If, indeed, he abandoned her then it is likely he has a halachic obligation to give a divorce. If she abandoned him, he does not have that obligation – though the “advocates” will still protest.
Sam: You are demonstrably incorrect. I can point you to specific cases where ORA used their methods without a beis din ever having rendered a judgement that the husband is obligated to give a Get. In fact, there is a recent letter issued by the Baltimore Beis Din condemning the protests organized by ORA in a specific case where the BBD had jurisdiction of the gittin case, it having been accepted by both the husband and wife, and the BBD never ruled the husband had any obligation to give a Get. Nevertheless, ORA conducted protests for years against him until several months ago the BBD issued a public letter stating he has no obligation to give a Get and the protests against him were wrong and kneged halacha and anyone who participated in them must seek his mechila.
Joseph: I know the case to which you are referring. A different Beis Din had required him to appear before them and he refused. Hence, they Paskened he was a Mesarev. Whether they or the BBD is right is a different discussion.
Another beis din never has the right to assert jurisdiction in which an earlier beis din (BBD) already had been accepted by both sides and heard the case. Furthermore, the later beis din when asked to hear the case was responded to by the husband that he doesn’t accept their jurisdiction as the case was already in the BBD’s jurisdiction. The later beis din accepted this response from him and dropped out without taking any action. So you’re not correct when you state that they paskened he was mesarev, as they halachicly couldn’t do so and in fact did not.
Joseph, please cite your sources regarding the power of a bet din. Please also respond to my distinction between compulsion and persuasion (e.g barring him from shul honors).
Shulchan Aruch EH 77:2,3. Rashbo teshuva 7:414 and accepted by the Radvaz, Beis Yosef EH 154. GRA 5.
The Chazon Ish Gittin 99:2 says that if the husband does not have a Torah obligation to divorce and the beis din instructs him to divorce, without applying any coercion other than their decree, their ruling itself creates its own oness/coercion and the Get is invalid as the beis din caused the husband to think he had a Torah obligation to divorce, whereas he did not, and thus he gave the Get mistakenly.
Rav Eliashiv (Kovetz Teshuvos 174):
The problem of getting the husband to give a get has been going on for centuries. While in Israel, the court can imprison the husband and deny him benefits and even them many times it doesn’t work. In America, they can only penalize him financially, which they are already doing.
As far as having the Jewish courts putting the husband in contempt, most courts will not issue a contempt citation unless the other party guarantees to pay the Jewish court’s secular court’s legal expenses when they are sued by the husband.
In most of these cases the wife went to civil court first got alimony/child support and other financial benefits and then wants the get. There is no incentive to give the get unless the husband is compensated in some way. The only thing that can be done is peer pressure in not giving them certain honors in shul. In this day and age when there is a large amount of divorced husband and there are small shuls on every block in many Jewish neighborhoods, there is bound to be one that will accept him for what he is.
Joseph, the Aruch HaShulchan says (EH 154,18-20 – http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14243&st=&pgnum=638) that the bet din can force a husband who is violent or abandons his wife to give her a gett. I submit that verbal or emotional abuse is in the same category. In fact, it can be worse than physical abuse. As for the CI you cited I will have to see it inside. On the face of it (assuming you quote him correctly and completely) it is very difficult. How is simply telling someone that eh should give a gett force? The nature of force is that there is no choice. Here he has a choice. He can refuse and take the social and communal consequences. Conversely, there is no obligation to give someone a shul honor, invite him for a Shabbat meal, etc.
In case anyone just missed what happened, Avi K asked Joseph for a source about the Beis Din Paskening by what they consider proper, and Joseph responding with the Sugya of Maus Alai. It was a brilliant irrelevant deflection, but an irrelevant deflection nonetheless. Maus Alai is not the only potential claim that a woman can have to ask for a divorce. A Beid Din can Pasken Mitzvah Legaresh for anything as simple as recognizing that the marriage os over with no future hope for reconciliation.
Can beis din be kofeh based on Mitzvah L’garesh, or do they need Chayav L’garesh?
In America, they can only penalize him financially, which they are already doing.
In America unless there was a prenup. there arent any financial penalties either and its possible there might not be any social pressures either.
Some of the recaltraint husband left Judaism and could care less about the Get or that they cant get an aliyah in Shul
In America, they can only penalize him financially, which they are already doing.
In some places (New York for sure), in some circumstances, he can be thrown into prison.
In some places (New York for sure), in some circumstances, he can be thrown into prison.
I dont think so, especially if someone claims its against their religous belifes not to give one
DaasYochid – There are many issues with the NY get law.
The guy can sign that there are no restrictions, if he believes that lack of a get is not a restriction and the Mesader is no longer alive to say otherwise.
In addition, she will have to pay the Kesubah if she acts under the NY law.
Finally, having the courts enforce a Get brings serious questions of Get Meusah, as the court is unable (legally) to enforce the actions of a Bais Din to provide a religious document.
Joseph, you misquoted the CI. He is talking about a case where they ordered him to take an oath to divorce her and then beat him in order to force him to keep his oath. Even there the CI is uncertain if the gett is pasul.
DY, the NY law only requires judges to take into consideration barriers to remarriage when dividing marital assets. Even has First Amendment questions and also creates questions of ?? ????? as the secular court is, in fact, compelling the gett. See “The Plight of the Agunah: a Study in Halacha,
Contract, and the First Amendment” in the Maryland Law Review (on-line).
In addition, she will have to pay the Kesubah if she acts under the NY law.
Do you mean forego the kesuva?
Finally, having the courts enforce a Get brings serious questions of Get Meusah, as the court is unable (legally) to enforce the actions of a Bais Din to provide a religious document.
It does. Some rabbonim go with the sevara that once a psak of chayav l’garshah is given, any type of k’fiyah is considered his ratzon, but it is very controversial.
DY, the NY law only requires judges to take into consideration barriers to remarriage when dividing marital assets.
Under certain circumstances it also allows the judge to imprison the recalcitrant husband as well. It might be a get me’useh, and might not. It depends who you ask.
Can you name any case where a husband was jailed in NY for not giving a divorce?
ZD, no, but if it’s never happened, that might be because it’s very much s last resort.
A judge can order both parties to sign Sworn Statement of Removal of Barriers to Remarriage (Form UD-4), and if one does’t, he can throw him in jail (I believe for contempt of court).
DY,
1. The person who must signs that form is the plaintiff. Thus, if the wife is the one who files for divorce she is the one who must sign.
2. All it says is that the marriage was solemnized by a member of the clergy or the Society for Ethical Culture and that to the best of the signer’s knowledge all barriers to remarriage have been removed. How a secular court would interpret that in light of the Establishment and Free Exercise (f he goes OTD or she becomes a BT and he does not) clauses is a question mark. If it is considered a religious ceremony then it would seem that the same prohibition against required prayers in public schools would apply. It could well be that it will be interpreted to only mean that secular legal barriers have been removed.
Joseph, for the Chazon Ish’s words see http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14331&st=&pgnum=327
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14331&st=&pgnum=327
1. The person who must signs that form is the plaintiff. Thus, if the wife is the one who files for divorce she is the one who must sign.
AFAIK, you’re correct, which may make the scenario uncommon. But if the husband files, but refuses to give a get, it can come up.
The courts do, in fact, recognize lack of a get to be a barrier for a frum woman. The law was written for this scenario, and is recognized as such.
Since it hasnt come it, it really is pointless at this point, I doubt anyone will be sent to jail for not giving a get in NY
I don’t know that it hasn’t happened. I do know that it’s come close to happening.
DY: Machlokes HaPoskim, I believe.
Even if a state judge issues contempt citation unless the husband is in court he must than issue an arrest warrant these type of warrants are not a high priority and the cops will not be looking for him. If he gets pulled over by a cop and they do a check when he got a ticket he will be arrested but if the jurisdiction that issued the warrant doesn’t agree to send someone down to pick him up quickly he will be let go.
From a financial stand point it doesn’t make sense to incarcerate a husband who wouldn’t give his wife a get.It cost the state about $60,000 a year to incarcerate a prisoner. He get three kosher meals a day, a place to sleep and free medical insurance and may even learn and daven with a minyan all day long.( Contempt of Court prisoners are housed are in County jails and don’t have to work). In theory he could remarry and have kids while being in jail. In Israel where they do send husbands to jail for not giving a get, many stay there for years.
In NYC according to the NY Times in Aug. 2013 it cost $168,000 per inmate per year to incarcerate. So at least in NYC I doubt they will jail the husbands.
I think that besides the Halachick considerations, we need to take into account the social norms of the world we live in. During the British Mandate of Palestine, there was a temporary practice to wrap the bodies of Muslim terrorists in pig skin and then bury the terrorist. This was used to deter the terrorism based on the assumption that Islam forbade the dead who were buried in pig skin to enter heaven. This practice was stopped because the social norms of the entire world dictated that it is deplorable and unethical to use someone’s religious beliefs against them – no matter what.
With the case of husbands who refuse gets – at its heart – the man is using the woman’s religious convictions to punish her. This is in both the world’s view and IMHO both deplorable and unethical and therefore should be treated as such.
For all intents and purposes the couple is quite actually divorced. Let us not use our religion to torture one another – no matter what.
Abba, according to what I read most husbands agree after one day. For someone who is otherwise normative it it is such a traumatic experience that there is actually an organization that gives white-collar criminals pre-incarceration counseling. However, there was once someone who stubbornly refused and was imprisoned for over twenty years until he died.
Besalel, the bit about the pigskins is anecdotal and has also been said about the American suppression of the Philippine Moro rebellion over a century ago (and that it worked) as well as the Chechen rebellion and the rebellion in India. Apparently the origin is in a movie called “The Real Glory” starring Gary Cooper.
Avi: I mentioned violence and abondonment are valid halachic causes for mandatory divorce. Note, though, that S”A rules that the halacha is that the beis din needs to give him a second chance – under warning – that if he doesn’t correct his behavior they’ll require him to divorce. Also note that the S”A rules that if he denies the allegations of violence, eyewitness testimony to that effect is required for beis din to have the ability to order a divorce. The S”A states that the beis din can put an agent in their home to bear witness if her allegations against him are true. Allegations regarding verbal/emotional abuse, though, are not specified in the Gemora that Chazal give as a valid cause for mandatory divorce. And the S”A rules that a beis din can only tell him he is obligated to divorce in circumstances that Chazal specifically list as a valid halachic cause for an obligatory divorce.
As far as the New York (or anywhere in the U.S. for that matter), no court can jail someone for not giving a Get. As noted, only the plaintiff filing the case is required to submit that form. That form needs to be submitted together with the initial divorce petition. And even if the husband is the plaintiff filing the case and he fails to submit that form, the court will not accept the case until it is filed, and deem his submission defective (no differently than if he failed to file any other required paperwork when filing a case) and the court won’t act on his filing.
And Rav Elyashev and many other poskim have issued a psak that if a wife invokes New York’s (second) Get Law in order to financially penalize her husband in marital asset distribution by the secular court when he didn’t issue a Get, then the resulting Get is invalid (Get Me’usa).
Joseph, if it is generally known that he is abusive perhaps there is an “anan sahadei”. It could also be that where the marriage is over refusing to give a get in order to extract concessions from her or for spite is a type of violence. Emotional and verbal abuse can be worse than physical abuse. Moreover, if the husband moves out and refuses to fulfill his marital obligations he is a mored and the bet din may force him to give a get. All this is regarding force. The bet din can certainly decide (see SA CM 2) that get refusers cannot receive any benefits of being part of a community such as shul honors. It can also allow publicly denouncing him in order to protect other women.
It could also be that where the marriage is over refusing to give a get in order to extract concessions from her or for spite is a type of violence. Emotional and verbal abuse can be worse than physical abuse.
That argument pretty much says that the halacha requires him to give a get because he’s not giving a get. Seems a stretch to me.
DY, if he already agreed on a civil divorce in principle and even more so if he initiated it yes. If he has moved out then he is a mored.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20027&st=&pgnum=377&hilite=
Rav Sternbuch (4:301): Question: I received a question from America where – due to our many sins – it is common that women rebel against their husbands and afterwards go to secular courts – Gd forbid! The secular court makes a judgment in her favor – through coercion and not in accord with the law of the Torah. The judgment obligates the husband to pay very high support payments and carries a penalty of prison for failure to comply. In addition she is typically awarded custody of the children. The husband is asking for a heter of meah rabbonim to be able to remarry without giver her a get since she is a moredes and has transgressed the religious laws. On the other hand she claims that the heter of meah rabbonim is not relevant since she in fact is willing to accept the get. She also claims that there are rabbis who support her position. So she wants to benefit twice by obtaining a get according to the Torah and also a judgment from civil court which steals money from from her husband even after the get.
Answer: In my humble opinion there is no validity to her claims and therefore the husband should be given a heter so he can marry another woman. The only limitation is that he needs to deposit the get with beis din as is the established practice. The reason for this is complex. 1) first of all since they are coercing him financially not in accord with the halacha regarding the support payments which are much higher than the halacha – that constitutes theft. Thus the get itself is a forced get. The gedolei poskim are worried about get me’usa. Thus the get is not actually valid and we have the problem that she is still a married woman who thinks she can remarry. Therefore it is necessary to exempt him from all financial obligations that were done against his will in order that the get itself be valid. Furthermore if the wife refuses to go to beis din, then that itself gives her the halachic status of moredes as is clear from Divrei Chaim (E.H. 51) and he cites the Chavas Daas who ruled that a woman who refused to go to beis din was a moredes and the gedolim agreed with him. … According to this if she goes with him only to beis din then he is obligated to give her a get. However when she goes to secular court in addition to make monetary claims – she is not able hold on to both sides. In other words she can’t go to the secular court with monetary claims and at the same demand that he give her a get in beis din. If she forces him to accept the rulings of the secular court in marriage matters he has no obligation to give her a get. We need to state in addition that the essence of the Decree of Rabbeinu Gershom was for the benefit of the wife. However this benefit is only available when she doesn’t abrogate her halachic obligations. But in the present case she has created serious devastation in the marriage in that she has rebelled against him and went to secular court where she received excessive judgements concerning maintenance and also the custody of the children. Her husband must give her a get in beis din so that she can remarry. So in the case of moredes the decree of Rabbeinu Gershom which was meant to benefit women was not intended and the husband can remarry with the heter of 100 Rabbis and he deposits the get with beis din until the judgment of the secular court is nullified. When that happens- if he has not yet remarried – then it is prohibited for him to do so until he gives his first wife a get.
In reality your question is a local issue of America and it is the job of American rabbis to decide. However my view is in agreement with the rabbis there who permit the husband to remarry without any difficulty and he needs to deposit a get with beis din. But when the judgment of the secular courts has been nullified then it is prohibited for the husband to remarry until he has properly divorced the first wife.
You should be aware that we are obligated to fight against her going to secular courts and we prevent her from remarrying if she does and if the get is given under these circumstances there is a suspicion that it was coerced (me’usa)…
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