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Chicago Rabbinical Council
Guide to Starbucks Beverages
February 2011
Starbucks shops serve many kosher and non-kosher items, with the most serious non-kosher item being hot meat sandwiches. The standard daily clean up at Starbucks includes a hot wash of all utensils and some parts of that washing are done without soap. This clean up process significantly challenges the kosher status of the otherwise kosher products and each product must be judged by a competent halachic authority. The cRc will be printing a detailed review and analysis of this topic in the upcoming edition of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society, and that article will subsequently be available on the cRc website.
Oh my. I always said starbucks was a bunch of shkutzim.
Anyone who has ever had coffee at starbucks knows that the coffee is always served in paper cups that are thrown away afterwards. Similarly, they do not use spoons btu plastic stirrers. I am at loss to understand the problem. The coffee machines surely are not washed “together’ with anything.
This is a big debate between the cRc and the OU. The OU holds it’s not a problem, the cRc holds that it is.
feif un- can you clarify why the CrC has a problem? When it comes to the coffee- it is made by machines that are dedicated to making coffee and nothing else and, as I said, everything else is disposable.
“I always said starbucks was a bunch of”
Degrading people created BeTzelem Elokim is worse than eating non Kosher.
and who said you cannot drinmk coffee from mcdonalds? of course, the “maaris ayin” aspect exists with mcdonalds but quiet less with starbucks.
Degrading people created BeTzelem Elokim is worse than eating non Kosher.
I don’t think so. I think eating non kosher is worse.
Also, I think it is a macholkes whether goyim are created b’tselem, despite the pashut pshat of the mishna.
Also, who was I degrading?
rabbiofberlin
and why do you assume that the maaris ayin aspect is less in starbucks than mcdonalds, if both serve treif hot meat sandwiches?
I hope the Rabbi doesn’t mind if I answer for him.
Mcdonalds’ primary business is to sell tarfus, so it’s an issue of maris ayin to go in even to buy a soda or coffee; one would naturally assume that the intent is to buy a hamburger. On the other hand, Starbucks’ main product is coffee, so despite the fact that one can also purchase tarfus, it’s not an issue of maris ayin (assuming the coffee is kosher, obviously).
It’s not appreciably different than walking into an Shoprite to buy kosher food, despite the fact that there is much non-kosher food sold as well.
Shlishi:
Then what is the point of the cRc? They are saying that people should not drink starbucks because they sell other items… What about 7eleven? The coffee there is kosher but they sell hot dogs and stuff and no one seems to mind… Does this mean that we should not buy anything from a store that sells things that are not kosher? Shouldn’t that be maaras eiyin also?
thank you-daas yochid- this is exactly what i meant ! You are always “on the money’ in all issues that you are discussing.
By the way- on a personal level, I have never seen any “treif’ sandwiches in a starbucks. Maybe chicago is different. In any case, there would be a million “tsedoddim lehetter” not least the fact that the vast majority of utensils are washed with soap (I can’t even imagine not using soap)that gives it the “nossen taam lifgam”.
Then what is the point of the cRc? They are saying that people should not drink starbucks because they sell other items… What about 7eleven? The coffee there is kosher but they sell hot dogs and stuff and no one seems to mind… Does this mean that we should not buy anything from a store that sells things that are not kosher? Shouldn’t that be maaras eiyin also?
It seems that the cRc is concerned about a different kashrus issue than maris ayin, that the equipment used to make the coffee is problematic.
Anyone who has ever had coffee at starbucks knows that the coffee is always served in paper cups that are thrown away afterwards. Similarly, they do not use spoons btu plastic stirrers. I am at loss to understand the problem. The coffee machines surely are not washed “together’ with anything.
The cRc is apparently asserting that they do wash some of the coffee making equipment together with other utensils. Here’s the link to the OP.
Note that the terminology is vague; they’re not publicly saying that it’s not kosher, just that there is a serious kashrus concern, so ask a competent posek.
Oh. Now I get it. Remember the thread about the frum jews going to treif restaurants? I bet they were going to starbucks.
Which Starbucks stores sell traif meat sandwiches? I don’t go to Starbucks often, but I do not remember ever seeing any meat there at all.
Here is the menu:
Hmmm…
Apparently neither of the starbucks I go to have full service. One of them is just a coffee cart in the college cafeteria but the other is a full store, so I’m surprised.
Say, maybe I should walk in with my large kippa and tzitzis hanging out and ask where the bacon is. I might even dust off my old hat for the occasion. 😉
popa,
That Bacon, Gouda Cheese & Egg Frittata on Artisan Roll looks really good.
Is that real cheese or fake?
College? You walk into a college?
Talk about maris ayin!
Is that real cheese or fake?
They wouldn’t serve fake cheese- that would be maris ayin. They are shkutzim, but they’re not that bad.
The cRc will be printing a detailed review and analysis of this topic in the upcoming edition of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society, and that article will subsequently be available on the cRc website.
why dont you all wait to see what they have to say?
They wouldn’t serve fake cheese- that would be maris ayin. They are shkutzim, but they’re not that bad.
Their rov might hold fake cheese is not maris ayin.
why dont you all wait to see what they have to say?
We don’t need to wait.
A. Starbucks sells bacon.
B. Bacon comes from pigs.
C. Pigs don’t chew their cud.
D. The pigs in question weren’t shechted properly, nor salted, nor the cheilev taken out, so even if they did chew their cud it wouldn’t be kosher. (Are pigs a chayah?)
E. Therefore, it is assur.
If the CRC wants to wait,that is fine. I’m busy collecting stones.
Their rov might hold fake cheese is not maris ayin.
He must be blind.
(That is not so bad; Rav Yosef was also blind and he was an amorah.)
I’ve only seen pre-wrapped packages at the starbucks near me. I don’t look too closely though.
Once the cRc comes out with their directive, I’ll ask my Rav.
Shlishi.
If u want to be extra ????? and not eat at Starbucks keep it to urself. But to post a blog about how “u can’t see how anyone can eat at starbucks is wrong.
edited
DO YOU WANT TO EAT A PIG? THE HOOFS? THE SNOUT? THE TUSHES? THE ESOPHAGUS?
why dont you all wait to see what they have to say?
Because we’re bored now.
Actually, shlishi is right. There’s a concern of issur, so we should wait it out until the dust clears, and if it turns out it’s, fine, go back to using it.
DO YOU WANT TO EAT A PIG?
Yes, but the Torah doesn’t allow me.
THE HOOFS? THE SNOUT? THE TUSHES? THE ESOPHAGUS?
No
“I always said starbucks was a bunch of”
Degrading people created BeTzelem Elokim is worse than eating non Kosher.
That is not fair. You didn’t quote my whole sentence. You are unfairly characterizing what I said.
rabbiofberlin,
thank you-daas yochid- this is exactly what i meant ! You are always “on the money’ in all issues that you are discussing.
I’ll take that as a big compliment, especially since we have not always shared the same opinion; thank you.
By the way- on a personal level, I have never seen any “treif’ sandwiches in a starbucks. Maybe chicago is different. In any case, there would be a million “tsedoddim lehetter” not least the fact that the vast majority of utensils are washed with soap (I can’t even imagine not using soap)that gives it the “nossen taam lifgam”.
I have no idea personally; I don’t frequent Starbucks myself. The cRc does point out that the issue is not in all Starbucks locations. It would be surprising if they don’t use soap, but you never know, maybe the commercial dishwashers are different, or some of the utensils would get ruined by soap (these are total conjecture). I personally have no idea, but I have no reason to think that the cRc is fabricating this.
But to post a blog about how “u can’t see how anyone can eat at starbucks is wrong.
Why is he any less entitled to express his opinion than you? He’s not physically picking anyone up and bodily removing them from Starbucks (at least I don’t think so; walking in would be maris ayin 😉 )
since starbucks sells treif hot meat sandwiches, why should getting a coffee in starbucks be any different than getting coffee in mcdonalds”
The main difference is that when you go to McDonald’s it is NOT for the coffee. A Yid going to Starbucks is ONLY going for the coffee.
As to the question of cleaning the machines – as far as I know, coffee machines are not cleaned like cutlery or dishes. Though I could be mistaken, I believe there is a coffee cleaner that is run through the coffee machine. The only thing that makes the machine “dirty” is the accumulation of coffee oils. Running the coffee brewing cycle with vinegar in the machine, cleans it out completely. If there were ever a “hechsher” on the coffee served in Starbucks, it would have to be that only a kosher cleaning process was utilized. CRC, of course, has raised the relevant question, and it needs to be checked out.
Though I could be mistaken, I believe there is a coffee cleaner that is run through the coffee machine.
Probably the coffee cleaner is made from pig’s hooves.
Yeah, probably. Or vinegar.
Probably it is wine vinegar from non kosher wine. (With the hooves)
Josh31:
“Degrading people created BeTzelem Elokim is worse than eating non Kosher.”
The statement that every human being is created bi’tzelem Elokim (and therefore deserving of respect) is from Pirkei Avos, and not brought down by the Shulchan Orach. That would make it the same halachic level of obligation as, say, getting married at 18, or not talking too much to one’s wife.
Eating non-kosher is a lav di’Oraysa, stated in the actual chumash. It is discussed extensively in the Gemora, Rishonim, and Achronim, and there are pages and pages of Shulchan Orach, Rema, and Mishna Berurah written on the subject.
How can you even compare the two?!
nw13:Mitzvos bain adam l’chaveiro are also lav di’oraysa; how can you judge which is more chamur- bain adam l’chaveiro vs. bain adam l’makom?
The concept of kavode habriose
Lomed Mkol Adam:
“Mitzvos bain adam l’chaveiro are also lav di’oraysa”
What lav? “Vi’uhavta li’raiacha kumocha” only applies to “raiacha”, your fellow jew.
rabbiofberlin:
“shlishim–mmmm…how about ‘veohavto lereaicho komocho’?”
See above.
“how about “midvar sheker tirchok”?”
Huh? What does respecting goyim have to do with telling the truth?
“how about “mipnei seivah tokum”?”
This only applies to people over the age of 70.
There are statements in the gemara which are more or less the same as the deleted comment I made.
I’m sorry if you don’t understand them, or if you disagree with them. I also don’t understand them, but if it’s good enough for the amoraim, it’s good enough for me.
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