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I was wondering what people thought of young couples (shana rishona or childless) having other young couples over for a shabbos meal? Why is this any diffrent then a young couple going over to a couple with a few children, but the children are all sleeping on Friday night?
I understand the issue of not getting too familiar with other people’s husbands or wifes , but
1. what if you will only talk to your husband or the woman guest (being a girl)?
2. and why isnt that a problem with people with kids?
thanks
There is a tznius component that must also be considered prior to young couples inviting other young couples for Shabbos.
There is a tznius component that must also be considered prior to young couples inviting other young couples for Shabbos.
But what is it? Why is it different if the couple has kids or not?
If you tell me that it’s wrong period (kids or no kids) then I understand (even if I don’t necessarily agree). But I’m curious (as is the OP) for the reason for the differentiation.
The Wolf
Wolfish,
I didn’t intend to say it is necessarily different whether there are children or not. Sorry for that confusion.
I didn’t intend to say it is necessarily different whether there are children or not. Sorry for that confusion.
S’ok. 🙂
There are plenty of times when I am less than clear as well.
The Wolf
I heard that it is a problem for young couples because the young couple hasn’t finished bonding yet, and the guy/girl is looking at the other girl/guy and thinking she/he is better than his/her spouse. After a few years you have bonded and it doesn’t bother you.
“and how could it be that after a few years it is ok? People can still compare even once they are married 20+ years.”
Absolutely.
This is unbelievable. You mean Chareidim now have a new “issur” on inviting guests? Where did I miss this one in Hilchos Yichud? Does that also mean a couple cannnot invite a yeshiva boy or seminary girl for Shabbos either? Is this the same “issur” as mixed seating at a wedding? Was Reb Moshe a bad Jew because he had mixed seating at all his kids weddings?
Pashuteh Yid:
Nope only fools.
Every one who is a real ben torah realizes that in a few weeks we will be reading from the TORAH that avraham had guests and not only that, he didn’t have children.
But he was only the father of judaism and not someone great, like Joseph, or his rabbi, from where he gets his nourishkeit from.
Just invite people over. If they say no, then be understanding of their concerns/customs. That’s all.
Don’t worry about being branded as “off the derech” for showing kindness and sociability. Or, look at it this way… if they would be so judgemental as to brand you as “off the derech” for inviting you over, then you’re probably better off without them anyway.
The Wolf
To reword myself, I should not have said fools. The Wolf put my words in a much more eloquent way.
neatfreak: You are correct in your concerns.
neatfreak, I think you have confused the cause for the effect.
I know that Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim holds of this idea. It is valid and the point should be understood well.
All those who claim things have gotten worse lately, have obviously not read Tanach. Some of the stories there would make a sailor blush. The yetzer hara has been around for a long, long time. That didn’t stop previous generations from being menschlach.
If I may elaborate by using a famous quote,
The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers.
I would have a belly laugh at this posting if it did not indicate the (truly) dangerous way in which some jewish circles (mainly chareidi) are drifting. To find evil intent and dubious motivations in every act of someone is totally NOT torah-dig.clearly, “heve dan es kol odom lekaf zechus”
If you feel that it is inappropiate to invite couples because of the possible inferences, then it should be across the whole spectrum. People’s inclinations do not stop when they have children or as they grow older. Mayb even qite the opposite.
The fact is that this has never been mentioned in halacah, it surely goes against the grain of one of the biggest mitzvas (hachnsos orchim) and it brands (unfairly)every person.
neatfreak, there are no longer mixed seating litvisher weddings because of the Chassidishe influence.
It is valid and the point should be understood well.
Agreed. I don’t think people should be ridiculed for holding this point of view.
As I said, if they say no, then be understanding of their concerns.
But, by the same token, I don’t think neatfreak should receive the “OTD label” for seeking friendship.
The Wolf
The weddings in Lita were not mixed seating either.
if having a shabbos guest is going to make the husband’s/wife’s heart stray, then that person is probably not committed enough to the marriage and should not have gotten married in the first place. More and more the Torah observance community is fast losing its grip on halachig observance that walks hand-in-hand with common sense.
the result is that the joy of yiddeshkeit is replaced by an ever-quickening spiral downward toward exclusion of anything that does not fit the narrow strictures imposed by that month’s “chumrah club.” Is it any surprise so many kids are falling so far off the derech?
EDITED
The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers.
Excellent.
I wonder what Avraham Avinu would say.
You mentioned Avrohom Avinu?
Sarah Imenu went inside and did not wish to interact with or even be seen by the guests.
In most normal families, the men and women there talk to everybody. Whatever the topic is, everybody participates together.
Joseph,
There is no such place as Lita.
Were you ever at a wedding in Lithuania? There’s not much resemblance between weddings there and then and weddings here and now.
PY: We are talking about Jewish families here.
squeak,
Lithuania.
I know.
Are Jewish families abnormal?
Joseph,
Do you also know that your parallel is fallacious?
I’m with PY on this one. In most homes I’ve been in, and they include homes of some very choshuve rabbis, the men and women speak to everybody.
squeak,
You missed the overall point.
Was the Lithuanian standard to have intermingling?
Squeak, you make me laugh.
NeatFreak, if you just want to speak to the women, how about inviting htem over for tea/dessert after the meal? Or shabbos afternoon dessert type of thing? This way you only have the women over.
Joseph,
There is a famous story with the Chafetz Chaim. A chassidishe rebbe (forgot who, very famous) was going to be in town for Shabbos and asked to stay by the CC, but he said that he’d appreciate if the men and women ate separately. The CC wrote back that he is more than welcome to come, but in his house the family eats together on Shabbos.
“Sarah Imenu went inside and did not wish to interact with or even be seen by the guests.”
Yet Avraham Avinu did not refrain from leaving his door open for guests.
So, are we to conclude that since we are not avram avinu we should abandon hachnosas orchim? Or perhaps, we should tell our wives to lock themselves in the kitchen for the duration of time the male guests are in the house? Or, perhaps we are to conclude that we should arrange for separate seating when having company?
SJS, I hope that’s a good thing!
Joseph,
Did you recall there was a famous picture of the CC sitting at a train station published in some biography? On the internet someone posted the original picture which included his wife standing around.
I hate to break the news to you but Lita was not what you imagine it to be.
truthsharer: So take your wife to the train station.
when couples invited another couple for a shabbos meal or even for a supper, how are they seated? Never could figure that out.(only a newborn involved)
truthsharer – I think that was the Chofetz Chaim’s home in Radin and he was speaking to Rav Elchonon Wasserman.
Anyway, Sara was m’karev the women and Avraham the men. But while Avraham was a terrific host, Sara wasn’t interested in overdoing the hachnasas orchim thing.
I think the best seating arrangement is to have the men at the far end of the table with the women close to the kitchen since they need to spend their time there, anyway.
Better yet, just have the women eat in the kitchen.
Joseph, perhaps you think that I am missing the point, but I believe otherwise.
I think that it was the cautious familiarity between Jewish men and women (which was the norm) that enabled them to interact with one another in a permitted way. It is precisely because now men and women are kept so far apart that they have no idea how to interact with each other when happenstance brings them together.
I am not encouraging frum people to let their boys and girls mingle so that they will know how to deal with members of the opposite gender. I am saying that once separations are so rigidly enforced, those separations must be enforced for life or they will act like teenagers no matter what age they are, no matter what their marital status.
It is precisely because young men and women DID have interaction with one another in your grandparents’ time (with properly established boundaries, but less rigid, of course) that they had a realistic understanding of the opposite gender and were able to act appropriately.
Joseph, I have eaten thousands of meals both at the homes of others when I was single and married, and at my home after I was married, with both singles and couples, and I have never seen any inappropriate incident at the table. Certainly, the idea of someone starting up with somebody else’s spouse, is the most far-fetched thing I could imagine. Maybe you should join my circle of friends, and see how well-behaved they are with no need for any of these newfangled separation practices.
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