Couple Meals

I have a personal relationship with a prominent kallah teacher in a big city in america. She told me that you wouldnt believe how many aveiros and divorces come out of couple meals. You really wouldnt believe it. Unless your oisek in that field then all your theorizing about it is worthless. It is very very bad. And you are uninformed

Toi:

And I have a personal relationship with many fine couples who have shared a Shabbas/Yom Tov table with my wife and I. You know what happened at those meals?

We had double the laughter, double the food, double the divrei Torah and double the zemiros. It’s called hachnosas orchim, and it’s been the Jewish practice since the very first Jew. If having your wife/husband at the table isn’t a profound enough deterrent to keep one from flirting with another’s spouse, then one needs to thoroughly examine the mettle of one’s marriage.

As with any social event–including ones that are just men or just women–there is a degree of common sense that must go into who is invited. Nobody wants that one man who’s going to drink too much and do/say inappropriate things, and no-one wants the married woman who shamelessly flirts with other men at the table. If people are known to behave in such a manner, don’t invite them.

In the past you repeatedly refer to yourself as a sinner. What gives?

Feel free to call me a sinner about things I have *actually* sinned about. There is so much of that available that there is no need to call me a sinner for something that is not, in fact, a sin.

The Wolf

Blintz- I understand your indignance. And i dont mean to say that youve done wrong. obviously not every, or even many, couple seudos cause problems. But the same way that internet is only thouroughly destructive a minute percent of the time, and texting doesnt always derail a teens yiddishkeit, why would people engage in an idea which can, and does, wreck marriages. I have heard the actual stories from her. You dont kknow cuz your not involved in this area.)

You really wouldnt believe it”

Yes, you are correct about that.

To Fix it up “oomis- i had the same question…. I’m going to find out about this. You gotta love this cr and everybodies crazy opinions!”

I find your comments a little offensive. At least oomis had the good grace to query what I had said. Al tarbeh sichoh means “do not talk too much” that doesnt mean not at all. I refer you to Kitzur Shulchan Aruch Perek 150 Seif 1. The al tarbeh is in fact referring to prior to intimacy and one has to be careful.it comes from a passuk “Umaggid Le’odom mah sicho..” This is halacha not frumkeit or somebody’s crazy opinions!! Who did you ask who said it was ridiculous?

Let’s conduct an experiment.

I will ask two recently married close friends (one shanah rishona) to host couples at their shabbos tables this week. We’ll see what happens.

I have a young married friend who told me that he finds it awkward when his wife’s brother comes for a Shabbos meal with his wife.

I’m glad someone brought up family relationships in this conversation. The Gemorah (Pesachim 113a, similar Bava Basra 98b) says that one must be careful with his wife and his sons in law. I find it difficult that we are discussing not having couples together, but we ignore the Gemorah and have sons in law by their Shviggers!!! Especially when the gemorah says about it that people must be careful.

One who is “sensitive” in these areas (eating with the opposite gender) must be sure not to go to their shvigger for meals, and certainly never to sleep at their home, CV! Also one must not invite their son in law for a meal or have them at their house.

It ISN’T hachnosos orchim to invite neighborhood friends and couples, as was earlier discussed on this thread.

Adding too many exclamation points doesn’t make you right.

and I think Im right. but we can disagree its fine

Toi:

I apologize if I came on too strong, but I do tend to get very sore when I feel that people are making blanket statements along the popular assur-until-proven-muttar line.

Obviously, there is a CHANCE–however insignificant and infinitesimal–that any woman other than one’s wife may end up being the catalyst for infidelity, but that is why God gave us brains and a yetzer tov. One needs to be intelligent about things.

Yes, I don’t deny that a woman who has spent years of her life involved with couples is bound to have encountered horrible situations that may have begun at a Shabbas meal, but that’s just my point: this isn’t the sort of thing we have the right to judge based on a perceived “majority” or “percentage.” Every case is different, and every Shabbas guest is different. Again: God gave us brains for a purpose, and He also assigned us the mitzvah of hachnosas orchim.

I sometimes fear: how far will we forbid every action outside of learning for fear of encountering the opposite sex? Maybe we should never visit our rebbeim or roshei yeshiva because their wives or daughters might be home. Maybe we shouldn’t shop for Shabbas because women might be there. Maybe we shouldn’t let our daughters invite their friends over or, chas v’shalom, host B’nos in our houses because, you know, girls.

There is nothing wrong with a personal geder or two–we are all entitled and encouraged to make them. I only bristle when people attempt to impose their personal gedarim upon world Jewry.

Did the three malachim who came to Avraham Avinu, sleep over? I know they pretended to eat the meal Sara prepared, but I didn’t know they stayed over – I thought they left immediately to complete their missions.

Reading this thread, I have to ask, as I have on other topics – have we no confidence in the mosdos that two generations of gedolim were moser nefesh to create to revive torah after the Shoah? Are we to assume with a geder like this that we and our children have learned nothing in the yeshivos and seminaries we built and sent them to? Do we assume our investment of time and money and tears and sweat in their education was a waste of time? Because assuming that people will not draw upon the temimus and yashrus we infuse their lives with through their teachers and rebbeim is just that. An assumption it is all for naught.. And I reject that. I have too much respect for those who built our mosdos. I have too much respect for parents who were moser nefesh and always provided a good example for their children. If one want’s to make a personal cheshbon hanefesh that he or she cannot handle the situation – then make the decision for yourself, and then ask a rov to guide you to a point where you can safely participate in your community friends, and family life without worry. But consider the efforts of all kinds that went in to making you a ben or bas Torah. Do you really believe they were of no use at all?

And Yael Respler is modern orthodox. So this idea that its not a good idea clearly cuts across ideological lines. She is also a therapist that deals with shalom bayis issues, giving her much credibility on this issue.