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What do you YWNers think about young couples having other couples over for a seuda on shabbos?
whats wrong with that?
I think it’s wonderful.
Not a good idea!!!!!
Lack of tznius. Dangerous. Let’s say the other man’s wife is more attractive. It’s one thing to see someone in the street; it’s another to be sitting with someone at the same table having a seuda together in a comfortable atmosphere.
Why give the yetzer hora easy bait?!
Really have people over! Are we really worried that two people are going to do something they shouldn’t while the host’s wife is in the kitchen getting desert and the guest’s husband goes to the bathroom? Lets use some common sense here.
Why would it only be a problem with younger couples?
It could be soo much fun but I could see where jealousy can kick in look we they treat each other…look what they have…… But worst of all that happened to me it was so uncomfortable is were the man turns to me and says everything was just delicious can u please give my wife recipes and pls teach her how to make this and this hers never comes out this good I wanted to crawl under the table For HER
Do you really want your husband or wife looking, joking and shmoozing with someone else’s spouse??? Its a new person with new stories, jokes and personality with someone else who doesn’t know it yet. It it just dangerous and it can be a problem – I wouldn’t suggest it….it can just get to be a problem if they start “diagonal dating”
It doesn’t have to be a problem – it just has to potential to be one. Don’t put yourself in an issue. Like emlf said – why give the Yetzer Hara easy bait???
Fix-it-up
I have heard that it is better for young couples (at least first few years of marriage) to avoid this.
The problem is that it leads to comparisons. You compare your spouse to your friends, how they look, act, interact, cook whatever its not a good idea and bizman hazel with things being the way they are people should really avoid it.
emlf
What about doing hachnasas orchim? Young couples, old couple, singles, widowed- they’re all a mitzvah! You don’t want to distort the concept of tznius and lose out on a great mitzvah.
Of course I would agree with you if you worry that the guest’s tznius or behavior might not be appropriate for the household…
if its really a problem invite two couples instead of one
You compare your spouse to your friends, how they look, act, interact, cook whatever its not a good idea and bizman hazel with things being the way they are people should really avoid it. “
And people compare their kids to other people’s children, so maybe children should not invite friends for Shabbos either. Avoiding socializing is a GREAT way to build resentment in a spouse who is sociable, and fosters the very discontent that leads to some of your fears.
We have couples meals all the time, but we make sure to have at least two other couples. This way the men are at one end of the table and the women are at the other end, and each side keeps themselves busy, there is not much inter-gender shmoozing.
Golden Mom, you can’t prevent couple jealousy just by not inviting them over. I’m sorry that happened, but even if you don’t invite them over, that won’t stop them from talking and comparing if they want to.
Ender, not everyone has room to host so many people, so should that prevent them from performing hachnasas orchim?
Ender
In such a case where the men and women are separate I am sure that it would be ok. Inter-gender schmoozing is inappropriate and leads to problems even though these days it is “accepted” in most circles.
I agree with Itche. How much more ridiculous can we get than making arayos issues? Rabbonim have spoken about these dangers so many times. Are we really smarter than them all?
When I’m married, I will happily have guests over for meals. Old couples, young couples, single guys, single girls. Anyone. If you don’t like it, don’t come.
MiddlePath, thats what I’ve been saying! I’m glad someone agrees 🙂
oomis 1105 “Oh brother, here we go again. Have couples over, enhance your Shabbos table with orchim….”
Whether or not couples socializing is an inherent problem has a lot to do with the communities they come from. People from more modern backgrounds who are used to socializing with people of the opposite sex (for example, in more modern communities is it very common for two families to share a shabbos meal and shabbos afternoon), will not see a big deal in having couples together for a shabbos meal and in most cases it is perfectly fine.
However, for people coming from more Chareidi backgrounds interacting with another couples is something very new and potentially can lead to problems.
In the back of the new Nefesh HaChaim Rav Chaim Volozhin quotes the gaon as saying that the more gedorim one puts up against arayos the more the yetzer hara burns. This isn’t meant to argue against gedorim c’v, however to recognize a fact of life.
I have lived in both chareidi and modern environments and during those times that I lived in the modern world I thought the chareidim were being so extreme in this a similar areas, however, now that I live amongst chareidim I totally “get it” and understand why for their culture having two couples sharing a meal would be very inappropriate.
A big Israeli professor once had a discussion with the frierdika Gerrer Rebbe, the Pnei Menachem zt’l. The professor asked the Rebbe, why do chareidi Jews have such a strong opposition to pictures of women who are not completely dressed? You must be very perverted if you have bad thoughts. He said that this never happens to him.
The Rebbe responded to him: Can you walk bare foot in the desert? The professor answered, no since the hot sand would burn my feet. So the Rebbe asked him, but the Arabs have no problem walking in the hot desert sands! The professor replied: that is because their feet have become so hardened and used to it. My feet are sensitive.
Said the Rebbe, yes and that’s how your soul has become, hardened and insensitive to inapproriate pictures, while the souls of chareidi yidden are sensitive to this.
It really depends on your hashkafa and where you’re coming from. If you come from a home/background where this is totally the norm, it might be something you can’t understand – you’re probably thinking, ‘what could be wrong?’ I made it very clear to my hubby after we got married that I wouldn’t be willing to eat out by other couples for Shabbos meals, albeight loads of invitations from couples in our neighborhood. At first, he didn’t understand what the big deal is, but I explained exactly what bothered me about it (as mentioned in some posts above). He agrees with me 100%.
Laker, well said.
There is no such thing as no challenges,u just gotta keep in doin mitvos, be happy and worl aroun the nisyonos!!!
It’s not pritzus,but it is a challenge, not an excuse not to do Hachnossas Oirchim!
It’s not pritzus,but it is a challenge, not an excuse not to do Hachnossas Oirchim!
If you are inviting someone who doesn’t have a place or is otherwise a nitzrach to be MiKayem HaChnosas Orchim that is very different than inviting your good friends who B’H have a very nice home and you are primarily focusing on the “social.”
It doesn’t mean that it is inherently wrong to socialize, it’s just a question of priorities and in which derech you want to go.
I once heard from R. Meir Stern a similar thing. He was talking about how a ben Aliyah doesn’t socialize as much. Not that there is anything wrong with people who enjoy socializing, just that socializing is not the derech to be koneh the “Keser Torah”, etc. See, e.g., Rambam hilchos Talmud Torah on “Keser Torah”, the “Crown of Torah’, which can be acquired by one who dedicates his nights to the study of Torah.
Maybe there is something to what that poster said about the MO world being different as per socializing as a couple.
But as concerns the “Yeshivish” crowd:
I heard from some reliable and mature friends in Maalot Dafnah and Arzei HaBirah that sometimes these innocuous looking “couples’ meals” have led to serious problems -some of which have had irreversible consequences.
It’s not just another chumrah -it’s just common sense.
The immature young and beautiful open-minded types are still welcome to insist that it is all innocent fun and games, and that any social contact with the member of the opposite sex is suddenly muttar after you’re married. Besides, the men aren’t socializing with the women… Or are they? True, most of the time people stay within the confines of decency -but you never know whose marriage is already 3/4 on the rocks and suddenly finds understanding by a friend who is -whoops!- a member of the opposite gender…
It may start in the presence of the involved parties’ spouses, and it may end with recriminations shared by the guests/hosts after they get back home. But sometimes -as rare as that may be -it doesn’t. And that’s more than a good enough reason not to socialize as a couple.
One who doubts this should consult Rabbi Yitzchak Berkowitz or Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein and ask them what their opinion is on such meals.
A man is not supposed to socialize with his own wife let alone with his friends wife. Al tarbeh sicha I’m haisha “
Are you married yet? Do yourself a favor and ignore your own advice. Sholom Bayis is not always easy to come by. I am now sure you are just a devil’s advocate trying to bait us all. No one could possibly believe what you wrote and have a happy wife.
shlishi: Really? Since when is sitting at a table with your wife, another woman, and her husband arayos. If that’s the kind of yetzer hara you have, maybe the Christian solution is right for you v’hamayvin yavin.
Perhaps you need to understand exactly what they meant by that. Maybe they are referring to sicha of laytzanus or anger. If a woman needs her husband to talk to her and listen to her, and he doesn’t, then he is not putting very much into married life, is he? Hashem told Avraham Avinu to listen to all that his wife said to him. Suppose he had decided not to have that conversation with her about Yishmael. We do not live in the times of the Chazal that suggested that (is it halacha, because if so, I know an awful lot of Rabbonim who are not following what Chazal said).
Read some of the horror stories related by Moshe Kohn. Those are just the tip of the iceberg.
‘Nuff said.
But to stam shmooze with her? “
SO you don’t do it. I enjoy speaking with my husband and vice versa. And my husband absolutely IS my buddy, my partner, the father of my children and Zaydy of our aineklach, my confidante, the person upon whom I depend and who depends on me. He has my back at all times, and I have his. And we love to talk to each other and strengthen the bond between us. He is an intelligent, loving person, with a great deal to say, sometimes about trivialities and sometimes about things that are more meaninful, and I hope he feels the same way about me. Maybe some people have nothing to say to each other, and that saddens me. But don’t quote chazal to “prove” that the rest of us are wrong.
I have actually heard this question asked to a Rosh Yeshiva of a large NY area yeshiva, with regard to young Kollel couples. He responded that couples having other couples over for meals IS something to be concerned about. He mentioned both issues — it leads to socializing with the opposite gender, and it can lead to shalom bayis issues due to comparisons. (This is especially true with younger couples who are still becoming comfortable in their roles. Additionally once there are older kids at the table the men/ women socializing issue is less)
Despite this, he felt there were certain advantages. (Not Hachnasos Orchim which, as has already been discussed, applies to someone in need of a place.) He felt that it is particularly important for women to have a “social life” (my words, not his), and often it is difficult during the week when holding down a job and caring for young children. Therefore his recommendation was that it is ok to do, but couples should not repeatedly have the same people over and over, which creates more intimacy and opportunities for problems. Rather they should rotate and invite different couples each time.
Of course each person should speak to their own rav or mentor for personal application.
Al tarbeh does not refer to stam talking to ones wife. That is obviously the basis of a good marriage that the couple talk to each other. Al tarbeh refers to the moments leading to intimacy. Check out chazal on this. Incidentaly the Manchester Rosh Yeshiva ztl was said to have discouraged couples eating together but apparently allowed two couples as a maximum.
mosherose: Please stop trying to wreck peoples’ marriages. If someone else has a good relationship with his wife, please try not to ruin it out of your own jealousy. Fech, davar ma’us. (Given the language I normally use, having to use euphemisms for you is really saying something.)
Mosherose
Im not sure if you are a troll or just a young boy needing guidance.
Chazals words are all extremely deep and cloaked with many layers of meaning. It is am haaratzus to take a line of chazal without seeing the meforshim and knowing what it means in depth. Chazal never intended Al Tarbeh to be a cause of Shalom Basis issues, if anything, most people are too busy these days to actually have a quality chat with their wife. Your wife is supposed to be your best friend. Ishto Kegufo! Your wife is like your own body! She is a part of you or rather she is you! You are 2 halves of one soul.
I think its a dangerous slope for people to invite their friends and wives over for a meal but I wouldn’t say its assur. just not a good idea. why are you making it so easy for the yetzer hara to tease you? No one is saying that they are going to actually DO something assur but its just not a “safe” path to start down. But I would not condemn someone who does it. And I dont mean older married couples with children- I mean young newlyweds.
You are required to provide your wife with all her needs. If she won’t stay married to you without it, then she needs it.
Just like she won’t stay married to you unless you give her food to survive, she also won’t stay married to you without a certain degree of conversation.
WIY, I really liked your response to MR’s post.
In reference to the idea that al tarbeh sicha refers to sicha prior to intimacy, did not chazal also say that a man should speak words of love to his wife at those times? I cannot imagine it could be “too much,” to be complimenting her appearance and expressing his feelings for her at that time. (Mods, please don’t edit me…)
Fix-it-up, one of the things I truly love (and I mean that I really do enjoy being here) about the CR, is that there is an eclectic group of us all on the frum continuum, and we all are able to express our opinions (hopefully always in a respectful manner, of course). Some of the more Yeshivish among us, have not had the opportunity to hear a differing view from their own, and though I personally am not seeking to CHANGE anyone’s mind (nor could I), I like the idea that as a frum Yid, my opinion has a forum that at least makes someone else THINK, if only to argue with me that I am wrong. Sometimes I am. Sometimes even THEY are….er…Mosherose…cough, cough.
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