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Could a Nazi style party ever rise to power in the US, thereby paving the way for another Holocaust C”V, and what is the likelihood of it happening?
Yes, certainly it is possible. Could happen anywhere. America, Europe, Israel or anywhere else.
Of course.
Could a Nazi style party ever rise to power in the US, thereby paving the way for another Holocaust C”V, and what is the likelihood of it happening?
Could it happen? Sure it could.
Will it happen? Probably not.
The Wolf
Could happen in any country, heaven forbid. Remember that America is essentially a Germanic country too. Very militaristic, very violent when it wants to be.
Lo aleinu.
Since you dealing with “alternative history” you need to define a “point of departure”.
The most common scenario involves the United States losing World War II (the war presumably ends with the East Coast under German occupation, and the West Coast under Japanese occupation). While the US was planning how to resist a German invasion (e.g. plans for falling back from the coast, disucssing the possibility of seizing Canada if after a British surrender they also surrendered, etc.), that really wasn’t so likely. Once the United States cut a deal with the Brits that if the British Isles fell, the Royal Navy would not be turned over to the Germans, this wasn’t a big threat. However if one comes up with a way the Germans win (probably starting with a British surrender, with the Royal Navy being surrendered intact to the Kriegsmarine), and assuming the Germans managed to pull it off, it is reasonable to ask what Americans would have done. I suspect that Americans would have been a lot tougher to occupy than Europeans, given a stronger tradition of local government, a militia tradition, extreme xenophobia, and a strong tradition of private gun ownership. The fact that racism in America was always directed towards Blacks more than Jews makes it further unlikely.
The other possibility is to come up with a scenario for an anti-semitic government to be elected in the United States. The truth is that isn’t likely unless you point of departure is incredibly early (perhaps going back to George Washington’s decision to establish a non-sectarian Continental Army, which led diredctly to a federal government that separated Church and state (remember the official church in New England was banned in most of the rest of the country). However once religious diversity became ingrained in American culture, oppressing any religious group became unlikely (at least, unless the group itself became hihgly political, such as the Mormons in the 19th century). The fact is that onoly anti-semitic politicians were always seens as jerks and marginalized, and in addition, bigots in America were more focused on Blacks and Catholics than Jews.
Thus a holcaust aimed at Jews in America would really be quite unlikely.
No- this is not possible in any reasonable sense. The chances are so infinitesimal of this happening in our lifetimes in the US. With ever increasing cultural diversity and technology that allows for transparent communication and education.
The bigger threat, though extremely unlikely, is the US becoming more like communist Russia than Nazi Germany, where a militant atheism could gain power and prevent mitzvos if they have a even a tiny sliver of intellectual appeal, i.e. shechting will be banned because its painful to animals and a bris mila will be banned because the baby does not have a choice in the matter.
newbee
+1
One message of both Communist Russia and Nazi Germany is that there always can arise new, previously unimagined forms of extreme anti-Semitism and persecution of Jews, r”l. There is no question that if HKBH seems it necessary for the perpetuity of His people, he could engineer such an event once again, ch”v.
However, in the case of Western culture today, this takes the form of weakening our resolve and undermining our ability to withstand the onslaught of materialism and hedonism. Whether this is the objective of the iPhone is as irrelevant as it is unlikely. The bottom line is that we are suffering through a spiritual holocaust of epic proportion.
Could a Nazi style party ever rise to power in the US for next 1 year 8 months & 16 & 1/2 days, under Obama rule, more likely to be a communist rise to power than a Nazi rise to power.
Do you really think Obama is a communist, 147?
If the dollar collapses and the economy tanks as a result, you know who gets blamed for it.
Even if the government doesn’t go after Jews, it doesn’t mean many people won’t do so and then there is the growing Muslim community to add to it.
If ch’v that happens, you know you can’t count on the Police to save you.
You saw a little piece of it when the mortgage/banking crisis hit. While it was caused by Clinton and Democrat (Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd) Congressional banking policies forcing banks to give loans that people couldn’t afford, Jews in Banking and Wall Street got the blame.
If Egypt and Jordan invade Israel and take military control Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, will you rely on them to protect you if the c’v happens?
akuperma – The most obvious recent point of departure (since you changed the question) is 9/11. If camps had been created for Muslims, then there is no reason why Religious Jews would not be next. Certainly could have stepped once “Goldman” and “Sachs” and “Bernanke” (i.e. Jews) could have been blamed for a more serious economic collapse.
As far as probability, the Holocaust was so obviously the Yad Hashem it is worthless to project. Our job is to follow and fear Him, and get along with each other so that Moshiach arrives.
the Holocaust was so obviously the Yad Hashem it is worthless to project
That is so correct. The question should not be looked at from a sociopolitical perspective, but from a ruchniyus one.
Most important is to not foment anti-semitism with our actions we are guests here we should obey the laws treat EVERYONE with respect being ohr lagoyim does not mean to set ourselves above other nations and think we are better and therefore we need not acknowledge their existence it means to show that we are the chosen people of HKBH and that we live by the torah i would say in the last 30 years respect of frum jews by non jews has tanked severely and this is our fault.
“Jews in Banking and Wall Street got the blame”
No they didnt you are talking about some youtube posters. No serious political figure blamed the Jews. There is zero chance of a Nazi-like dictatorship starting in the US. In Nazi Germany, anti-semitism had been brewing in Europe for a very long time, and there was very little cultural diversity in terms of percentage of the population.
gavra-at-work: If Israel goes to war against the United States (declared or otherwise, enough if the US is support sanctions similar to those used against North Korea today or South Africa 30 years ago), it would probably lead to an awkward situation for most American Jews, but still wouldn’t lead to a holcaust. It might lead to most zionists being forced to move to Israel, but that’s all. Under American law as now understood, one couldn’t round up Muslim citizens (though aliens of a hostile country can be interned and deported). The only acts of genocide in American history (the “middle passage” and the Indian removals) were both illegal at the time, and did not involve systematic mass murder, and wouldn’t of happened with better communications.
If Israel and the United States ever find themselves at war, it would perhaps lead to expulsion and forced migration, not death camps.
DY – Danke.
AK – If there was precedent (which there could have been in the mass hysteria after 9/11, or had they crashed into Indian Point instead of the Towers, etc.), then the law would not stand in anyone’s way.
Inter arma enim silent leges
The passing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was the beginning of the end in terms of real safety for Jews in the United States. It removed the diversions that had protected them.
if it could be done to the Japanese in WWII it could be done to anyone anytime
Joseph: what a foolish comment. Aside from the fact that you demonstrate no Emunah, when did the U.S. ever send troops here. Israel has one of the best military’s in the world and Hashem is with us.
The U.S. has provided military equipment, but also used it as a weapon against us too. It provides much of the same equipment to our enemies. We are also far more self sufficient than ever.
The U.S. didn’t come to our aid in the holocaust either.
Akuperma: your scenario would be Gog u’ Magog and we know the outcome to that.
Our aveiroz have a lot more to do with the equation than the political atmosphere.
there’s a concept in Gemarah of ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? and ???? ????? ???????, so we don’t write as such…
What needs to be said is that the Holocaust was practically ????? ???? ????, both is how it came about, and how it finally ended. To go through history, examine all minute details… nearly impossible. To start, how ??”? was born.. his childhood.. teenage years.. chances of becoming an anything… we must come to the conclusion that things were running, orchestrated directly from above, without too much sense or reason from down here…
Same with the ending.. the various open Nissim all orchestrated at D-day and following.. the Nissim at El-Alamein…
Why did WWII happen?all of us would be reform today, don’t start telling me these stories my grandfather learnt in ponovetz yeshiva hes still a ???? today. We would all be reform today it was just a matter of time Hashem had no choice but to do it. Before the 2 ??? ???? were destroyed there were only 2 choices what to do (& one of them wasn’t to put a hunger in the land) either kill out all jews or destroy the ??? ????? that was the only makeup for the sins we did then, if Hashem destroyed all the jews then Israel is not full of uncleanliness anymore, if the ??? ????? is destroyed then the holiness left the land & the jews can live (either both holy=no jews or both uncleanliness=no ??? ?????) Hashem had to destroy it we were too low in spirits & couldn’t be with it anymore.
Barry: Why is your Emunah lacking that Hashem will protect us in America? Do you think Hashem cannot allow a holocaust to c’v occur in Israel? Do you think it was only possible in Europe?
Instead of putting your faith in the “self-sufficiency” of “one of the best military’s in the world” put your faith where it belongs. And recognize that during golus whatever could happen to you in Europe could happen to you in Israel.
Davening and Limud Torah, far far far more than the military, is what protects us.
Git Meshige,
Could a Nazi style party ever rise to power in the US, thereby paving the way for another Holocaust C”V, and what is the likelihood of it happening?
Heaven forbid. Anything is possible, but I think an exact parallel to Nazi Germany is unlikely in the U.S. I worry more about parallels to the Greek oppression during the time of Bayis Sheini, where mitzvos became targets. Two examples:
1. Cultural views of circumcision in the U.S. are changing rapidly for the negative. This could CV”S lead to legislation in the future that restricts or effectively bans halachic bris mila (e.g., minimum age requirements, procedural limitations, etc.).
2. Animal rights and environmental activism may lead to a culture shift away from eating meat or towards “ethical” consumption. Based on what we’ve seen in the past, kosher slaughter is often disproportionally singled out by groups such as PETA. This is already happening in Europe (e.g., requiring “not stunned” labels).
While it would be hard to come up with a scenario of a holocaust-like destruction of American Jews (death camps, etc.). It is easy to come up with a situation in which Orthodox Jews are persecuted to an extent that would force emmigration (bans on Bris Milah and Kashrus, ban on “homophobic” schools, no tax exemptions for religious institutions that don’t endorse the gay and feminist agendas, etc.). But that wouldn’t be “racial” (in fact, secular Jews would be the leading advocates of such laws), and would affect many other religious minorities (some of whom are only now finding out they are minorities).
It is easy to come up with a situation in which Orthodox Jews are persecuted It is already happening with orthodox Jews getting totally “out of line” jail sentences on pettiest of crimes. This is coming to be a new form of lynching in this day & age in the USA.
147: Nothing in American history suggests that religious persecution and harassment would lead to large scale pogroms or death camps. It might lead to us moving elsewhere, probably to one of the more conservative countries. A fact to consider is that many Christian groups are being subjected to similar persecutions (so perhaps one impact might be a movement, already happening, of frum Jews moving out of New York to “red” states, rather than to a foreign country (particularly since the conservative countries tend to be very poor such as in Africa or persecute frum Jews such as those run by zionists or Muslims). Also remember that most anti-semitism (defined as persecuting orthodox Jews) comes from secular Jews, and secular Jews are very concentrated in the “blue” states – a “holcaust” would have to come from goyim and we get along fairly well with American goyim.
There is a tradition from Rav Chaim Volozhiner that America will be the last galut and the Jews there will never be persecuted as Jews. Of course, this does not mean that some Jews will not be persecuted for other reasons as in Argentina., where many Jews “disappeared” because they were leftists. During the Thirties pro-Nazi groups and individuals (e.g. Henry Ford ym”s and Father Coughlin ym”s) were active and vociferous. Polls showed widespread anti-Semitism. Yet American institutions held so far as Jews were concerned. The internment of Japanese-Americans was indeed reprehensible but nowhere near a holocaust. Since then America has changed greatly. Moreover, the right wing is increasing philo-Semitic as they are starting to remember the source of traditional American values and the left is ideological incapable of persecuting groups per se (although there might be “anti-discrimination’ actions against Jews, as well as other religious people, who do not want to service same-sex “marriages”). The great danger to American Jews today is assimilation. This is a silent self-imposed holocaust.
As for Orthodox Jews receiving stiff sentences for “petty” crimes, this is not limited to any ethnic or religious group. The Federal sentencing guidelines enacted after major fraud scandals
have led to Draconian white-collar sentences. However, the pendulum seems to be swinging back as almost everyone agrees that America is over-criminalized and should not have such a high percentage of citizens behind bars.
Joseph: Your post is laughable. You question my Emunah? That’s why I’m in Eretz Yisroel and your in Shumtz LaAretz and my emunah is lacking?
Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why your faith is so lacking that you sit in NY or wherever and allegedly have emunah. Try to find out the real reasons for anti-semitism and ask yourself the question again.
I’m not criticizing people who have not made Aliyah. There are some very valid reasons for some, but the handwriting is on the wall that it’s time for Jews to come home.
“The passing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was the beginning of the end in terms of real safety for Jews in the United States.”
One of the most stupid comments ever posted to the internet.
Yes, Barry, your emunah most certainly is lacking with your misplaced faith in the Israeli Army from saving you from a holocaust c’v in Israel rather than placing your emunah in Hashem Yisborach who you apparently believe is c’v incapable of reaching Jews in Israel for a catastrophe there, G-d forbid.
Anything can happen, but it’s extremely unlikely that a Nazi-type party would ever take power in the US.
However, a holocaust could still occur. All it takes is one nuclear bomb or missile from North Korean or Iran or ISIS, to kill millions of Jews in NYC. The US has a strong military but sometimes defenses fail and snafus happen.
If a nuclear missile was being shot at NYC or Israel, or a bomb was being sneaked into a NYC harbor, then perhaps the US and Israeli militaries would have a roughly equal chance of stopping it before it explodes.
However, Israel might have a slight edge in this regard, since they have had more experience with wars and missles on their turf and are more effective at thwarting real terrorist attacks.
yytz: Yet America has far more experience than Israel in nuclear weapons, including defending itself from nuclear or other biological and WMD attacks.
Joe: So you have more faith in the American army than the Israeli army?
Chuckhall: “One of the most stupid comments ever posted to the internet.”
Whatever one thinks of the original comment, your comment has way surpassed it in terms of idiocy, since you felt that merely calling something “stupid” was a good counter-argument. As I write this, my four-year-old daughter, however, agrees with you, that calling someone’s statement “stupid” and leaving it at that is a good argument.
No, I have faith only in Hashem.
While calling something stupid is not a good argument, if something is very stupid it may not require an argument.
Joseph: You get more absurd with each post and pretending to know where I put my faith shows a lack of intelligence on your part.
Your faith is what’s lacking, since you put it in the hands of Eisav. The IDF is but a tool of Hashem. I told you to go learn the causes of anti-semitism. Hashem is sending you a message but you are too deaf, dumb and blind to see it.
Hashem could have protected the Jews of Europe too. The Jews, who understood what was happening and were able to get out, were spared. You just are too comfortable living among Eisav that you not only don’t want to get the message, but you disparage those that do.
Remember, 80% of Jews never left Mitzrayim. The same thing is to occur again. Which side will you be on?
You already put yourself in the 80%. Thinking Hashem can’t get you where you are because “Israel has one of the best military’s in the world” and “we are also far more self sufficient than ever” is the same attitude as the Zealots when instigating the Roman legions they were certain they would defeat (against the instructions of Chazal) and that of Ben Kusiba who, too, thought they would defend the Holy Land in their uprising.
Joseph: Dealing with you is having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. You make crazy insinuations as if someone else said something when they didn’t. Then you keep repeating the same stupidity.
Get this through your head! Hashem protects us. You haven’t a clue about what’s happening in the world and the messages we are being sent. Stay in your fantasy land.
Joe:
??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???’ (????? ??) ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???”? ????? ???? ????? ??????
Kesubos 110B
Barry:
????????????? ??????, ???-???????? ?????-???????????, ????? ????????, ?????? ??????????? ????????: ?????????, ???????? ?????? ???????????. ?? ???? ???-????-??????????? ?????, ?????? ????????-??????? ?????? ??????????; ??????????, ???????. ?? ?????-?????? ??????? ???????, ????????????? ??????, ????????? ????? ???-???????, ?????? ??????????.
VaYikra 18:26
You are both wrong.
Indeed, Hashem very much protects us. Whether we are in Chicago, Sedorot, New York, Jerusalem, London or Samaria. Hashem isn’t sending us any messages that you are safer in Gush Katif than in Miami or safer in Sedorot than in Lakewood. Unless, of course, you claim to have a direct telepathy line to the heavens that you are informing us from. If we are to take cues from actual events occurring today in the real world, the derech hateva we see is that those in Sedorot are less safe than those in Lakewood and those Jews in Israel suffer more causalities, injuries and deaths targeted for being Jewish, than the Jews in Canada.
gavra_at_work: How is living a Torah life in Israel wrong? I can quote you all kinds of pesukim that say that this is where we belong. Hashem didn’t command us to live in Boro Park, Williamsburgh or Lakewood.
Joseph: Too bad for you that you don’t see it. That’s what happens when you put binders on and are too comfortable living among Eisav.
BarryLS1 – because there are many there who engage in actions they are not supposed to do, it makes it more risky the Hashem will remove everyone there via the land spitting them out. It is exactly as the Pasuk says.
gavra_at_work: Are you saying that non of us belong in Israel?
because there are many there who engage in actions they are not supposed to do, it makes it more risky the Hashem will remove everyone there via the land spitting them out. It is exactly as the Pasuk says.
There is so much kiruv happening in Israel, so much more than anywhere else in the world. I think Hashem has a lot more patience than we think because so many of us are trying to do the right thing. Yes, everyone does aveiros and some are more blatant than others but with the nissim that happened during the war this past summer, I think it’s pretty clear that Hashem has faith in us.
Instead of putting your faith in the “self-sufficiency” of “one of the best military’s in the world” put your faith where it belongs. And recognize that during golus whatever could happen to you in Europe could happen to you in Israel.
It’s not by accident that Israel has one of the best militaries in the world. I see it so clearly as yad hashem that a country as young and as tiny as Israel, somehow manages to have one of the greatest militaries in the world.
interjection: Exactly right. Also, there is no comparing most Chilonim with what those in the States experience with secular Jews. Most Chilonim are far more connected and have lots of potential. They are in the category of a Tinok She’Nishba and many return all the time.
There are so many places in TANACH where Hashem promises us that we will return home, that he will bring us back to Israel. Never before in history has this occurred where people exiled returned to their native home, yet it is happening for us in fulfillment of those prophesies.
It’s shocking and a shame that people can’t, won’t or just don’t want to see it.
Every step of the way in the stages of the final Geulah, starting with Yehuda and Tamar, has come about from something with the appearance of being treif. We learn that this is so to fool the Sitra Achra. It’s not so far a stretch to believe that the secular Zionist is just another such manifestation.
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