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Its been a while since I was last on this website. But I saw something that made international news and I wanted to speak out against it with the hopes that I could make some positive impact and reach someone within the community that can cause real change.
Its a shame the way some people in the Jewish community are acting when it comes to Corona. Just a few hours ago I saw an article about how a Jewish healthcare system in New York “fraudulently obtained vaccines, transferred it to facilities in other parts of the state in violation of state guidelines and diverted it to members of the public – contrary to the state’s plan to administer it first to frontline healthcare workers, as well as nursing home residents and staffers”. The quote came from the governor of New York’s office.
This is a major chillul Hashem. All of this and some of the other news coming out of Jewish areas about flaunting covid rules have really put Jewish people all over the country in a very bad light. I really wish that at this stage, people would take covid seriously and just follow the guidelines set by the government. When you go outside the lines, it makes all of us Jewish people look bad.
I don’t live in the New York metro area, but I hear about how terrible Jews in New York are from my irreligious Jewish friends and non Jewish coworkers. When I talk about this with my friends, I am able to make the distinction, because almost all people in my Jewish community are adhering to guidelines. But the problem is that my coworkers and irreligious friends don’t make that distinction. They look at this and at best they lump all torah observant Jews together and at worse its Jews in general.
I beg of you who live in these communities, follow the guidelines and if you see someone not wearing a mask ask them to put one on. If not for themselves, do it for other Jews. Human lives are so precious, even if you are so opposed to wearing a mask or following guidelines, just do it for other people. Its a minor inconvenience for you that can potentially save someone’s live. Regarding the distribution, follow the plan the the government and public health officials have in place. Even if you disagree with the allocation, the order of vaccinations were put in place to mitigate the loss of life, but “cutting” and getting vaccinated before the guidelines state you are taking the place of someone who may be at a higher risk than you are.
I end my rant by wishing everyone a happy new year filled with health and success
Your respectful tone is quite refreshing. Yasher koach.
I have no idea if the allegation is true. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if it is a complete fabrication. I would assume it is false or at least grossly mis-portrayed in the absence of proof otherwise.
That said, even if it is true there are over two million Jews living just in the five boroughs of New York City. And over a million more in that metropolitan area. Probably 25+% are Orthodox. That’s almost a million Orthodox Jews in the region. There’s always man bites dog stories of those one in a million that makes the news. The issue is the media is anti-Orthodox and portrays the one in a million as routine.
If this had been done by a black person, Hispanic, Baptist or any other group the news would not have pointed out the ethnic, religious or nationality of the offender. That antisemitism is only reserved by the media for Jews, especially of the Orthodox variety.
Something about this story seems off. The health center in question was very open about the fact that they received a shipment of vaccines. They posted about it on Instagram, Twitter and gave an interview to a local website.
Either they are incredibly stupid or arrogant to think they wouldn’t get caught. Or there is more to the story…ujm, the Rambam Hilchas Yesodei Hatorah (5,11) says that Chilul Hashem is dependent on expectations. There is more expected from Orthodox Jews.
I would like to explain something to people
I have a hard enough time fixing my problems that I have to worry about other people’s problems too?
It would be more accurate to say Corona Anti-Semitism (again)
No other would have the ethnicity of those who allegations are being made against so public.
(This is actually one of the oldest form of anti-Semitism all the way back to the Sar Hamaskin in last week’s Parsha וְשָׁ֨ם אִתָּ֜נוּ נַ֣עַר עִבְרִ֗י עֶ֚בֶד לְשַׂ֣ר הַטַּבָּחִ֔ים)
Sukkos time when corona numbers were high in Jewish neighborhoods the government was saying that we’re to blame, we’re spreading the virus, they targeted us for all sorts of harassments. etc.
Now that a vaccine is here they say how terrible it is that people of that color and other minority groups got so much corona, society is to blame and those groups (bit of course not us) deserve priority in getting the vaccine because of how much they suffered.
bk613
I agree something seems off,
“Either they are incredibly stupid or arrogant to think they wouldn’t get caught. Or there is more to the story”
It is probably the former. They didnt realize what a fuss people would makewithin hospitals there are fights over vaccines. Do security guards get? receptionists ? administrators etc. Everyone insist they are in contact with Covid pts
I am not eligible yet , the distribution in NYS is being done by hospitals. I am not a hospital employee, I am in private practice aka “voluntary staff” I see Covid + pts daily (not suspected, positive) many of them daily. I get to watch politicians and others who have sero exposure to covid get theirs.
see NYT story “Hospital Workers Start to ‘Turn Against Each Other’ to Get Vaccine”
Then I get forward that some group in boro park is giving it to “health care workers” those “at risk”
now I dont care that much, since I am young, had had covid and giving to elderly /at risk might make sense but the state was clear that at this vaccine was for “The first New Yorkers to receive the vaccine will be high-risk hospital workers (emergency room workers, ICU staff and Pulmonary Department staff), nursing home residents, nursing home staff, followed by all long-term and congregate care residents and staff, EMS workers, other health care workers, coroners and medical examiners. Staff at every hospital will have access to the first vaccine allocation.”
Note: NOT for elderly, or at risk (yet)
When I got word that friends who are not healthcare workers but older than I, fine . but many doctors/nurses I know seeing Covid pats daily were Livid
This was (or should have been) predictable
naturally many complained to the state
I recall so many commenters saying that pikuach nefesh is doche limud hatorah and tefilla betzibur, and basically kol hatorah kula. Why don’t they find that pikuach nefesh is doche a possible chilul Hashem?
There aren’t 2 million Jews in nyc, and definitely not 1 million frum Jews. There are only about 2 million frum jews worldwide
Covid has emboldened the “sorry to be Jewish Jew” and gave him another excuse for kvetching.
This is another nothingburger that our enemies have dreamt up. Get off your high horse and stop celebrating fake New Years.
PS, check out the videos of senior Roshi Yeshiva of Yeshiva University getting vaccinated. Are they also part of your I’m I’m so embarrassed Rant? Or only Hasidim?
If this story is true, whether a clinic is owned by yidden or goyim, the state should immediately revoke their licenses and prosecute the owners to the maximum degree the law allows. Otherwise, this will become the wild west where those who are willing to pay the most or know the “right people” will cut to the front of the line
>> check out the videos of senior Roshi Yeshiva of Yeshiva University
papers I saw are not clear who got it. It seems to be an accepted practice that community/business leaders vaccinate to encourage others. Not saying whether this is right or wrong. Are we talking about several leaders, or general public?
I do question government strict preference for medical workers v. elderly that are not in nursing home and not fully isolated. Vaccinating elderly is directly saving lives.
The troubling part is the _allegation_ that vaccines were received directly from feds around the state control.
Overall, I hope all focus will be on vaccinating. It seems to be happening slowly, with doses reserved for the 2nd shot, balancing groups … Currently 9.5 mln doses shipped in US and 2 mln used (20%).
NYC – 175K delivered, 55K used.Israel is vaccinating 0.6% of population per day, US and UK – 0.1%. It is early days, of course, but this is something to watch.
pekak >>>pikuach nefesh is doche a possible chilul Hashem
what is the source for that?
“There are only about 2 million frum jews worldwide”
Yup….but many goyim believe our numbers are much higher, given the media attention we seem to attract. Given the events of the past year and the global suffering from the pandemic, any verified episodes of yidden gaming the vaccine priority lists will become the new “blood libel” of our time.
AAQ: Pekuach Nefesh is doche virtually everything.
It can be done without a chilul Hashem, so pikuach nefesh is certainly not doche.
Reb Eliezer: An elderly vulnerable person with preexisting conditions living at home cannot get the vaccine through normal channels currently.
Yet young Congresswoman AOC did get the vaccine. Explain that.
” we’re spreading the virus”
We were. We had mass spreading events. We opened schools without adequate prep or precautions. And we were photographed and videoed ignoring mask and social distancing. And just two days ago a friend in Brooklyn told me that we still not doing what we should do.
Meanwhile, my charedi cousin in Israel has not been to a minyan during the entire pandemic, and I have not been to an indoor service since March 13. We do not have to spread the virus.
“Israel is vaccinating 0.6% of population per day”
Israel is #1 in the world in vaccination rate.
ujm >> Pekuach Nefesh is doche virtually everything.
I understand Rambam and Chinuch discuss that public Hillul Hashem in general is not doche, in addition to 3 sins. We can presume that NYTimes has at least 10 Jewish readers. I’ll let those more learned to present detailed shitot, but it is clearly not a simple issue.
Reb E: It can be done without a chilul Hashem,
Indeed, NY Post raises this halakhic issue by giving us a picture of the office and a person with a hat and without a mask walking in front. Again, I am not believing those stories or pictures until proven, just discussing hypotheticals.
Could we all agree at least on this meager moral principle:
>>> someone who is not bothering to protect himself, should not cut the line for the vaccine <<<ujm, the elderly is mostly at home not mixing but AOC is out among others. I am an elderly person having also a pre-existing condition, waiting but not making a chilul Hashem.
“Yet young Congresswoman AOC did get the vaccine. Explain that.’
Easy, when popular/famous/influential people do something publicly it instills trust in said activity.
Maybe leaders should be given 50% placebos, to be sure that they demonstrate leadership but not over-use it.
Real priority question is about “essential” workers and elderly. The way government looks at that, half of the country is essential. And even vaccinating all 100 mln essentials, we are not achieving herd immunity, as the remaining 200 mln will become less careful with time. Showing respect to elders is much simpler and will directly save lives.
Maybe there is some simulation somewhere that shows benefit of going with essential workers. Or, maybe it is the same overthinking that lead to initial declaration of “don’t need masks” to save them for medical workers.
a few years ago all Jews were anti vaxxers and thereby spreading measles. now this same religion is stealing vaccines?
There is only one person who we can have control of – ourselves. See that you do everything yourself to be safe, wear a mask in public places, keep to social distancing, stay away from crowds or public events as much as possible. Adhere to the rules yourself and don’t worry about what other people are doing and thinking.
If you see someone close to you not wearing a mask say in a shop keep away from them, at least 2 metres. Don’t speak to them as this means they will breathe towards you and could spread the virus to you. Better have no contact or communication with them.
If you are in a shop and the cashier has no mask or there is no plexiglass shield in front of them then go to a cashier/shop that has them.
As for people supposedly being able to obtain the vaccine on the underground market etc.
I wouldn’t lose to much sleep about them as only in a properly controlled medical environment will the most effective vaccine for you be provided, according to your needs, requirements and medical history and according to the medication that you may already be on.As it says in the Kerias Shema If “you” listen and do the mitzvos and love Hashem, then He will do His part in preserving you!
There is a lot of confusion in this thread .
One comment in particular stuck out “pikuach nefesh is doche limud hatorah and tefilla betzibur, and basically kol hatorah kula. Why don’t they find that pikuach nefesh is doche a possible chilul Hashem?”
Lets count the errors:
1) no one said related to thsi pandemic that pikuach nefesh is doche limud hatorah. I did not miss a single day of Limud Hatorah this entire pandemic, if you did that is on you (unless was an ones) no one I know said not to learn, don’t try to hang your bitul Torah on what imaghinary commenters told you
2) pikuach nefesh IS doche limud hatroah, I was not aware this was controversial For example if you are a doctor and were tending to a patient then YES you do not ignore your patient to learn . Iwas not aware that this was a controversial idea. Aside from the above I cant think of a way the pandemic would have prevented one from learning Torah
3) Pikuach nefesh IS doche tefilah betzibur I was not aware this was controversial.
4) pikuach nefesh is NOT docheh chilul Hashem. In fact the mitzvah of Kidush Hashem includes Afilu hu notel es nafshecha
5) Delaying the vaccine a few weeks or months is not pikuach nefesh just keep social distancing a little longerparticipant
“a few years ago all Jews were anti vaxxers and thereby spreading measles. now this same religion is stealing vaccines?”no one said ALL Jews were anti-vaxers. some where that is too many. No one said “the religion” is stealing vaccines. some adherents may have been that is too many
I take issure with the very last statement, “… a happy new year filled with health and success”
But us Yidden (Jews, for the uneducated), we have one MAIN Rosh Hashana, three other ones. I doubt this secular date is included.True, there was a certain Tzaddik how would say a special bracha to HaShem on this “new year”, certainly not is the same vein. It’s not our new year at all. We are not allowed to consider it as such. החודש הזה לכם ראש חדשים, that is ours, and JUST that is ours. Actually the יונים, like from the Chanuka story, every one knows, they tried to do away with Rosh Chodesh… We held on. And we continue to do so.
If the author is right that the current policy is murder, is it a chillul Hashem to violate this policy?
I am not granting that they violated any laws, certainly not knowingly (they deny it). I am asking even if theoretically they did.
I have an issue with people who have no medical background being in the health care business be it a frum businessman or a wall street venture capitalist, because at the end of the day the reason for existing is to make a quick buck.
LF
“It’s not our new year at all. We are not allowed to consider it as such”
3 related questions if I may.
In addition to the 4 Rosh Hashanas you reference In September, I wish hatzlacha to the new year in school. I and they consider September to be the start of a new school year Ialways wish them success on the new year in September, or Elul as the case may be. Is this allowed?
In medical training July is the start of year Medical students , interns, Residents all get “promoted” July 1st, and at the time we considered this a new year (and today when I interact with trainees I still reference this new year) wishing them health and success on the new year Is this allowed ?
For financial stuff I consider January the start of a new fiscal year and separate finances based on this goyish date. Is this allowed?
In short in addition to the New Years as outlined in Rosh Hashana. I recognize several other new years over the course of the year. you say “We are not allowed to consider it as such” do you have a source for this?
Thanks( please note the source you do mention is not at all a source for your assertion, if anything it undermines it. As you probably know the passuk is referring to Nissan, yet We DO NOT keep New Years in Nissan. Rosh Hashana the start of the year in Tishrei. Showing clearly that although Nissan is the first month, and it might be wrong to label January, July or September or Elul as the first month. IT is not wrong , based on that passuk to consider other new years. )
DY
I’m not sure the author is right. Though I’m not sure he’s wrong either, I am sure it isn’t as black and white as he makes it sound .
That said if the current policy is murder It isnt a chilul Hashem to violate it in a justifiable way.
The problem here is 2 fold1) the brazenness. it was advertised, the ceo posted a picture of him getting it on twitter. This is baffling to many and speaks to a complete lack of sechel and understanding
2) They gave people without any criteria at all. If they said we are vaccinating the elderly before healthy healthcare workers I would have no problem with that ( some still would but not me). This isn’t what happened I know several young healthy people who got them. I am still waiting for mine, many of my colleagues /coworkers who spend hours wit hCovid+ patients daily are waiting for theirs. Giving it to a patient at risk is justifiable in my opinion (even against CDC) , but giving it to young healthy people is not
ubiq: They clearly stated they will not give it to anyone not meeting one of the three criteria they listed as qualifiers to receive it from their clinic.
1) the brazenness. it was advertised
This makes me believe their claim that they did receive authorization, it at least that they believed they did.
2) They gave people without any criteria at all.
This certainly isn’t what their stated policy was. That having been said, in some cases it could be justified. From what I understand, once opened, all 10 doses need to be used right away, so if two people didn’t show up to their appointments, it’s better to give it to two young healthy people rather than discard them. They also found many vials contained an extra dose, so better to use it on someone available rather than throw it out.
I didn’t say I believe that. I’m saying that according to those who say it’s doche limud hatorah and tefilla betzibur it should be doche kol hatorah kula.
DY
They probably did, . However if they believed it they are clueless (which was my point). It is possible some pencil pusher authorized it, but they should have had the brains to keep it secret. That is my point The CDC decided that Healthcare workers and Nursing home residents should go first (I’m not convinced this was the right decision) . There are not enough vaccines for all healthcare workers. The state gave hospitals the authority to choose who gets it. It is a big mess. hospitals are giving their own so administrators, security guards etc are getting them while “outside contractors” who care for Covid patients but don’t work for the hospital are not Similarly outpt physicians who don’t work for a hospital although they may be the first ones Covid + patients see, have no way of getting a vaccine.
All this has been going on BEFORE the advertisements went out. As soon as I saw the advertisement it was clear that Someone goofed, and if the outcry would get loud enough there would be a problem. I don’t understand how they didn’t see that. See NYT story 12/24 Hospital Workers Start to ‘Turn Against Each Other’ to Get Vaccine” for an example of how crazy it isAgain I’m not saying the CEO committed fraud (though the picture of him getting one doesn’t help he isn’t over 60 , however to be fair I don’t know his underlying health conditions)
Someone did, and they should have realized it, as anyone with connections to healthcare suspected someone dropped the ball.(again to be clear “Dropped the ball” doesn’t equal fraud, my point is they shouldn’t have been so brazen)
2) That would be justifiable
That doesn’t seem to be what happened though. I know (relatively) young people healthy who got them. They weren’t put on standby and told to come wait if their were ones about to be discarded they could get. They had an appointment went and got it.ujm
“They clearly stated they will not give it to anyone not meeting one of the three criteria they listed as qualifiers to receive it from their clinic.”
The 3 criteria were ones they made up not approved by authorities (which is the thrust of R’ Hoffman’s article protesting that strongly).
This is what NYS said “The first New Yorkers to receive the vaccine will be high-risk hospital workers (emergency room workers, ICU staff and Pulmonary Department staff), nursing home residents, nursing home staff, followed by all long-term and congregate care residents and staff, EMS workers, other health care workers, coroners and medical examiners. Staff at every hospital will have access to the first vaccine allocation.””note NOT elderly NOT preexisting conditions (outside nursing home)
Again we can argue that those groups SHOULD get it first (Which is R’ Hoffman’s point. and I’m not sure I disagree) but that isnt what the State approvedAND
it isn’t what happenedubiquitin,
“In addition to the 4 Rosh Hashanas you reference In September, I wish hatzlacha to the new year in school. I and they consider September to be the start of a new school year Ialways wish them success on the new year in September, or Elul as the case may be. Is this allowed?”
You are ignoring context to quibble with Little Froggie over semantics. The school year legitimately and appropriately affects us, and is clearly an arbitrary date set for convenience by school systems. The medical school year is just another type of school year. Fiscal and tax years affect us too, and are purely secular, though it’s a bit strange to wish people happy fiscal new years. But how should the non-Jewish religious observance of New Years Day affect us as Jews?
You may ask why then did LF have to bring in the other new years listed in the mishna, but I believe he did so because all of those new years are religious in nature, as is New Years Day.
This has ZERO to do with a Chillul Hashem and everything to do with health care being uses to make a quick buck. When someone who sold food for Roeach foods become a CEO of a chain of Health care centers we have an issue, when venture capitals own a doctors offices we have an issue.
The two largest staffing firms, EmCare and TeamHealth, together make up about 30% of the physician-staffing market.
That’s where private equity comes in. A private equity firm buys companies and passes on the profits they squeeze out of them to the firm’s investors. Private equity deals in health care have doubled in the past 10 years. TeamHealth is owned by Blackstone, a private equity firm. Envision and EmCare are owned by KKR, another private equity firm.
we need to get back to where the doctors had is own practiceAvram
“But how should the non-Jewish religious observance of New Years Day affect us as Jews?”
I’m not sure what you mean by “should” If it doesn’t it doesn’t. I never said we all should be wishing each other New year’s greetings at this time.
LF said And I quote ““It’s not our new year at all. We are not allowed to consider it as such” That we are NOT ALLOWED to consider it a “new year” surprised me. IF you say it is inappropriate , we reall shouldn’t, it doesn’t pas. I hear that (perhaps agree) This idea that we only have the New years in the mishna isn’t true (as you agree) The idea that we are not allowed to commemorate additional New years surprised me, and I would like a source
(“because all of those new years are religious in nature,” speaking of quibbles, I’m not sure thats true R”H leshanim is how to date financial documents, shtaros etc arguably this isnt ” religous”)
” as is New Years Day.”
R’ Moshe disagrees see Even Haezer 2 : 13 (Though he notes a Baal Nefesh should be machmir this is clearly not “We are not allowed to consider it as such”)My post #1932741 is more rambly than usual
I’ll try to put it more succinctly:
IT seems clear to anyone (or should have been*) in the healthcare industry that not everything was on the up and up with their getting the vaccine.
As such they should have been more judicious with their criteria ,advertisement. and especially administration*IF it wasn’t obvious to them and they were convinced everything was fine (a possibility that may be true) , then THAT is a problem too. how could they be so out of touch
Avram
“But how should the non-Jewish religious observance of New Years Day affect us as Jews?”
I’m not sure what you mean by “should” If it doesn’t it doesn’t. I never said we all should be wishing each other New year’s greetings at this time.
LF said And I quote ““It’s not our new year at all. We are not allowed to consider it as such” That we are NOT ALLOWED to consider it a “new year” surprised me. IF you say it is inappropriate , we reall shouldn’t, it doesn’t pas. I hear that (perhaps agree) This idea that we only have the New years in the mishna isn’t true (as you agree) The idea that we are not allowed to commemorate additional New years surprised me, and I would like a source
(“because all of those new years are religious in nature,” speaking of quibbles, I’m not sure thats true R”H leshanim is how to date financial documents, shtaros etc arguably this isnt ” religous”)
My post #1932741 is more rambly than usual
I’ll try to put it more succinctly:
IT seems clear to anyone (or should have been*) in the healthcare industry that not everything was on the up and up with their getting the vaccine.
As such they should have been more judicious with their criteria ,advertisement. and especially administration*IF it wasn’t obvious to them and they were convinced everything was fine (a possibility that may be true) , then THAT is a problem too. how could they be so out of touch
(in a pending comment there is a refrence to R” Moshe’s Teshuva although relevant it isn’t as cut and dry as my post made it sound and does not prove my point please ignore)
DY – re your point about R’ Hoffman’s article calling the vaccination rollout policy murderous. While he may be eminently more qualified than me to say what Halacha is, the issue here is what the facts are. He has one viewpoint and I am sure if anyone would read what he said, there are likely dozens of other viewpoints that would come up. Actually, I could argue R’ Hoffman’s suggestions would cause more loss of life… That is the wonderful thing about debating such an open-ended question where the varieties are endless. I would not rely on his essay as a basis for breaking the law and possibly causing a major chillul hashem.
ubiquitin, and others, Sorry. I never meant it to be definitive. But I do remember hearing a lot about this topic, using secular dates (Teshuvas Chasam Sofer maybe). Certainly calling it, defining it as a new year would be worse. Then there’s this issue of what that date signifies. If it’s in reference to Yoshke or”b (of rotted bones), then there’s this aspect of moda/ mokir avodah zara c”v.
I’m by far no halachaknician, not by any stretch of imagination, just saying…
thanx mods
ubiq I was simply pointing out the absurdity of lumping all Jews in 1 category which is what op said he has experienced. I’m not talking about whether or not it’s a chillul hashem.
can someone please summarize the story6 for the sheltered?
LF
“Sorry. I never meant it to be definitive”
thanks for the clarification.
participant
“ubiq I was simply pointing out the absurdity of lumping all Jews”lumping is wrong .
I would not rely on his essay as a basis for breaking the law and possibly causing a major chillul hashem.
I am questioning if something is a chillul Hashem when it is very reasonable to say that their actions saved lives.
Calling the existing policies murderous is probably hyperbole and is not necessary to make this point.
Hypothetical question:
Say there’s a clinic giving vaccines on a first come, first served basis.
It’s all legal, legit, following guidelines, etc.
You show up and there’s a line three blocks long.
Is it muttar/appropriate to cut the line?
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