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You are, again, mistaken. I maintain it is 100% legal. Just not on a mass, widespread, distribution basis. Which I’ve made clear in my earlier comments. Wide distribution (uploading or downloading) is akin to commercial copying, even if there is no payment or profit.
And I’ve cited both the relevant statue and cases. What you’ve cited involved mass-distribution, at least on one end.
Popa’s right.
Interestingly, the recording industry apparently feels that even some forms of copying of media which you purchased does not fall under “fair use”.
From Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF):
Sure, the Post should have made clear that the RIAA is not suing Howell for making personal copies. (The Howell case is just the one of thousands of suits the RIAA has brought against fans sharing music via P2P). But the evidence suggests that the original Post article was correct in spirit — the RIAA believes that most copies for personal use are unauthorized, infringing on their copyrights, and illegal. They are simply choosing (wisely, considering the public relations disaster that would result) not to fight personal copying at this time. They will not officially acknowledge the right of fans to make personal copies, nor will they rule out the possibility of suits on these grounds at some point in the future.
Why would u pay for something that is so easy to get for free plus 99c times 1000 becomes alot of money….
Would you walk into a store and put a candy bar in your pocket without paying 99 cents? Why pay 99 cents when you can easily shoplift it? I eat 100s of candybars so the 99 cents adds up…
In other words, just because it’s easy doesn’t make it muttar or legal…
Its not a problem but a person will end up listening to non-jewish music
Um? How does copying music cause one to listen to non-Jewish music? If you hold copying is “OK” and want to listen to Jewish music, then copy the Jewish music from your friend. According to Hershi (who I don’t agree with), this is even legal since it doesn’t involve downloading (and Muttar since it doesn’t involve the treif Internet…)
If you feel that it IS stealing, but it is OK from a non-Jew, then you should realize that there are Jews in the non-Jewish music industry as well…
Daas: Just because the recording industry would like everyone to pay anytime they take a breath near a CD, does not make their or popa’s legal analysis anymore correct.
I would not have bought it anyway so its ok to copy
This is an interesting, but dangerous, heter that people use. This gets into the whole hock about the fact that you are not stealing an actual physical object, but rather intellectual property. So since you wouldn’t have bought it anyway, the producer is not “losing” anything by you copying it.
The problem is, how do you determine that you “wouldn’t have bought it anyway”?
What if you had no music and this was all that’s available, would you buy it? If the underlying reason why you “wouldn’t buy it” is because you have so much (stolen) music already, so you have no need to pay $15 for a CD, then according to that lamdus, you would never pay for any music.
Let’s say you are currently a poor Yeshiva bachur, but 5 years from now you get a job and can afford to buy some music, will you then go and pay for some (or all) of the music you stole 5 years ago?
They are selling the CD for $15 which you won’t pay, but would you pay $0.99 for one song if it was available individually? If so, then perhaps you are stealing because you would have paid $0.99. What if a year from now the price will drop from $15 to $10, and you are willing to pay $10, would you then go and buy it, or once it’s stolen it’s stolen and you feel no achrayus to buy it?
All of these are important questions that if answered in certain ways could mean that you are actually stealing even according to the “I wouldn’t have bought it anyway” heter.
Kol kula tzricha b’dika…
hershe: Can you at least say that I was right, and that you aren’t interested in how a court would rule, but only what you think the “real pshat” in the statute is so that you can justify it to yourself.
Absolutely not. I demonstrated with a case study that a court will rule in favor of personal non-commercial copying, when it doesn’t involve mass/internet distribution. At least acknowledge we have a disagreement, and agree to disagree.
We don’t have a disagreement. You have not cited anything for that proposition, in a case where the music does not belong to you–which is the key difference that the courts I showed you relied on.
There aren’t even any websites which say what you say. Do a google search–everyone knows you can’t copy music.
This isn’t a disagreement. You don’t know enough to disagree.
Apparently we’ll just have to disagree to disagree.
Daas: Just because the recording industry would like everyone to pay anytime they take a breath near a CD, does not make their or popa’s legal analysis anymore correct.
Hershi, even the pro consumer EFF is only justifying copying what you already own.
So DaasYochid your saying that its mutar to copy something you already own?
Barring specific, valid limitations in the sale (e.g.) leasing agreements, yes.
How far does that extend? Can only your immediate family use it?How about friends?
I suppose they could borrow the original to use. Rav Belsky was mattir for immediate family members living in the same home.
What about if ts for a music video?
Probably not.
can you post it to a site where everyone will be able to copy it?
No.
DY: Are you saying that Rav Belsky was only matir immedIate family to borrow an original CD?? I believe you can loan your CD (to listen to) to anyone, just as you can loan anyone your Sefer or watch.
It is assur whether anyone involved is Jewish or not (Choshen Mishpat 348:2 and 359:1).Some say that it is even d’Oraita.
The disks I have seen say that you cannot even play them for others but I doubt if this is meant seriously except if you are selling tickets (lawyers like to put in absolute language and then judges put in the ifs, ands, buts and maybes). What if you have a thin wall and your neighbor can hear even if the volume is reasonable?
There are various shittos. Many rabbonim hold copying something you would not have otherwise purchased is muttar.
DY: Are you saying that Rav Belsky was only matir immedIate family to borrow an original CD?? I believe you can loan your CD (to listen to) to anyone, just as you can loan anyone your Sefer or watch.
No, I suppose that anyone could borrow.
DY: Are you saying that Rav Belsky was only matir immedIate family to borrow an original CD?? I believe you can loan your CD (to listen to) to anyone, just as you can loan anyone your Sefer or watch.
No, I suppose that anyone could borrow.
I always copy good music. I play it myself!
DY: On what basis do you think that loaning/borrowing a CD is any different than copying a CD that you would otherwise have not bought?
Hershi,
If you own something, you have a right to use it yourself or lend it to another; it’s all part of the ownership of that one item. If you copy something, you have two of the item, although you only bought the rights to one.
Also, I don’t believe that the argument “I wouldn’t have bought it otherwise” can safely be used. As one rov replied to someone who asked about copying, “of course you wouldn’t buy it if you can get it for free by copying it!”
If you buy a cat and it gives birth, you have two, even though you only bought one. So what? There is no halacha prohibiting owning two of something that you only bought one of.
And if you buy a watch and disassemble it and locate and purchase all the third-party parts the watchmaker manafactured it with, and put a second exactly duplicated watch together on your own, you have deprived the original watchmaker the revenue of had you purchased it from him, that was his “intellectual property” in knowing what parts to use where. Have you stolen from him? Why was he entitled to have you buy it from him?
And perhaps you don’t believe the argument, that you wouldn’t have otherwise purchased it, can safely be used, but others disagree with you. Though, you are correct that one must be honest with himself about the truth of that.
hershi,
The fallacy in your analogy is that a music or software cd’s value is not in it’s physical presence, it’s in the creative, financial, and time investment put into it. the CD itself is worth about ten cents, a downloaded file worth nothing, physically.
As far as being honest with yourself, I’ll relate a story told to me by the protagonist. A relative had a copy of Judaea, a 1981 release which was (and still is) a unique sound in Jewish music. He rationalized that he would never buy it, so he copied it. When he lost his copy, he went back to his relative to copy it again, but he had also lost his. So he bought it. He then realized that he couldn’t trust himself to accurately judge when he would or wouldn’t have bought something, so he stopped his practice of copying.
Hershi, I must say that you are ‘intellectually’ incorrect.
You probably posted your last post in bed.
DY: I take it that if, theoretically, one could be and was certain that he would not have otherwise purchased it, you are maskim there is no issur to copy. (Otherwise, why would you be pursuing the point that you don’t think it is possible for a person to be confident of that point.)
And if you buy a watch and disassemble it and locate and purchase all the third-party parts the watchmaker manafactured it with, and put a second exactly duplicated watch together on your own, you have deprived the original watchmaker the revenue of had you purchased it from him, that was his “intellectual property” in knowing what parts to use where. Have you stolen from him? Why was he entitled to have you buy it from him?
If it was patented, then you have stolen from him. And you wouldn’t even need to take it apart and copy it, since you could just look up how to do it from public documents through the patent office.
Pba: I was discussing from a halachic perspective.
30 years ago a Poisek told me it’s Muttar to copy music tapes (Jewish). I don’t know if he would admit to it nowadays.
And there is such a thing as Mezonos bread.
I also wrote a Teshuva here in the CR saying there is nothing wrong with eating Sofek Yoshon.
Pba: I was discussing from a halachic perspective.
Oh. Ok. Yes, I am not aware of anything like a patent in halacha. I wonder if it would ever be masig gvul.
Regarding dina dmalchusa, many poskim (incl. Rav Elyashev) hold that dina dmalchusa only applies to issues between a person and the gov’t (i.e. taxes) and does not apply to issues between one person and another person (i.e. financial).
DY: In addition to the point I made in the previous comment, please clarify on what halachic basis you feel copying isn’t permitted under halacha. (More than Rav X said so. Rather, the basis why he says so.) I believe it will be the taking business away principle, and not theft. (As shoplifting a camera would be theft, but I.P. copying would not be, halachicly.)
DY: I take it that if, theoretically, one could be and was certain that he would not have otherwise purchased it, you are maskim there is no issur to copy. (Otherwise, why would you be pursuing the point that you don’t think it is possible for a person to be confident of that point.)
I pursue that point “l’ravcha d’milsa”. There are other considerations as well.
What other consideration that I haven’t addressed in my last comment?
It is still unclear what specific halachic issues you feel absolutely preclude copying, if any.
I learnt that one can can music for ones own use but not for public use e.g can’t put it on speakers at a party
Those terms and conditions some of the frum cd’s state are a meaningless unenforceable joke that has no force. Can’t play in public? What if they stick a term in there that you have to mail the producer a $50 check every year you play it?
And the “rent” idea is even funnier. Do they really believe that if I am negligent with that cd and it gets stolen or broken for example that I am liable to the owner? That I can’t resell the cd to someone else since I don’t own it? Neither the seller nor the buyer really mean to rent this cd and that’s what matters, regardless of what it says on the cd.
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