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So LoHud.com ran an article titled “Ramapo Nears Breaking Point”. Here is the link. I hope the mods allow it on here.
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/ramapo/2017/01/08/ramapo-ny-breaking-point/95369994/
I stongly feel that this needs to be discussed here.
Jews have made their beds in Monsey (Ramapo) in the past 20 years, and now they are sleeping in it.
So many issues that were mentioned in this article, and so many more which were not.
We are gonna get chased out of this country.
Keep it up Lakewood and Ramapo!
Not to worry, I am prepared to be called a self-hating Jew, and of course make sure to yell “LASHON HARA” when I say something you don’t agree with.
Bring on the debate!
I read the article, and the point is the Suburbs mean something different to non-jews and not chradi jews than to charedi jews.
Im not sure some understand the idea of being a good neighbor vs anti-semitism.
Its not anti-semetic to not want a 5 story yeshiva on your block
ZD -“Its not anti-semetic to not want a 5 story yeshiva on your block”
Question – If these people would rather live in NY – then let them buy out in NY – why Ramapo or Lakewood?!?
“Its not anti-semetic to not want a 5 story yeshiva on your block”
It is if they would be totally fine with a 10 story university or 2 story mega church… Do you buy it when zoning commissions block Synagogues because of the “traffic” it would cause?
Changing demographics lead to changing neighborhoods. Ramapo is not “breaking” just because it is changing.
I can’t help but notice that despite all of the fearmongering, the one change that I didn’t see the article mention is how much the home values have risen in Ramapo. Guess it didn’t fit the narrative.
That being said, zoning laws and fire ordinances must be followed. There was recently a case where a development in Monsey was shut down by Frum Jews, with the support of Rabbonim, suing due to flagrant violations. Developers must learn (or be taught) to play by the rules or face the consequences.
If you read the full article you’d notice that it falsely implied that home values are *falling* as a result of the changes.
You usually dont build a Mega Church in the same place as a shul or yeshiva. People want to be able to walk to Shul or Yeshiva, but they want to be able to drive to a Mega Church or university so they need a large parking lot. Yeshivas and Shuls dont really want this, so you would build the Mega Church or University on a main street like Route 59. You would not build a Shul there (You might build a Yeshiva there , like a School but not a yeshiva with Shabbat or Yom Tov Servies)
Question – If these people would rather live in NY – then let them buy out in NY – why Ramapo or Lakewood?!?
I suspect most of the people complaining were already there or had family there. Non jewish people are not really looking to move to Ramapo or Lakewood. but people already there , dont want to move. Or someone who was from there, might want to remain (Like and adult child who grew up and wants to live where they grew up)
MW13 and Joseph: although the article keeps on harping about residents’ fears that their homes’ values will fall, it does admit at one point in the article that it’s not actually so, and I quote:
“With space at a premium, aggressive home-buying solicitations have led to accusations of blockbusting, although the term actually refers to the practice of persuading homeowners to sell cheaply, playing on fears that people from a different race or class are moving into a neighborhood. In fact, despite critics’ fears that an influx of ultra-religious Jews will hurt property values, the opposite is true in Ramapo, where houses normally sell at a tidy profit.”
So it needs to be read carefully to get to the truth, but they’re not lying outright. I also thought its emphasis on photos from Kaser was misleading, as Kaser is only a small part of Monsey, that’s its own village and denser than most of Monsey/Spring Valley.
In general Real estate is hot now, There are very few areas in NYC area that prices arent high, especially now that the city is Sky High and people are looking for cheaper in the Suburbs again
ZD -“I suspect most of the people complaining were already there or had family there”
You didn’t understand my comment! I was talking about the Frum people.
I live in Lakewood and when I bought here – it wasn’t a mini-Boro Park!
Health, that was about the other thread.
But people moving from Borough Park and going to bring Borough Park with them.
Anytime people from one place to another, they will bring part of the old place with them
Urban cities have no place to build. It is the normal course of real estate that suburban areas become more urban throughout the United States as the population grows. This isn’t unique to Monsey and Lakewood.
Actually Joseph, much of Brooklyn (and the NJ waterfront as well) is building upwards, higher than the previous buildings in the neighborhood were. And because it suits the city’s tax rolls, almost everyone seems to be supporting it. Of course the suburbs have a lot more space to build, but it’s not exclusively a frum Jewish issue. But when it happens in Monsey it’s a travesty, while elsewhere it’s considered an economic boon.
Of course growth has to be dealt with safely, but to claim we were once a small village and are to remain so forever is unrealistic and shortsighted.
In general if one is not a religous jew and the area they want to live in is not available, they will choose someplace else. That option is not availble for frum jews as much
The Rockland Jewish Federation and the Rockland Board of Rabbi’s both protested the article. Neither is in anyway affiliated with the Orthodox community in Rockland to put it mildly.
That should tell you something about the articles.
And that should shed some light on the commenters who feel there was nothing wrong with the articles in the Urinal news.
The word McMansion was not invented because of construction in Monsey or Lakewood
A few comments to the posters here. In many parts of Monsey, real estate values have been stagnant to down for several years. We can speculate about the cause, but all the new building can’t help. Also, many Ultra Orthodox (perhaps not Chassidish) are not happy with all of the over building in Monsey. Traffic on Fridays, Sundays and certain times of the day are terrible. The building growth is exponential, not incremental. Part of the problem is that every election cycle, the Rabbonim, Askonim and Roshei Yeshivos declare one side to be anti-semites who will close all of the Mosdos, so you have to vote for St. Lawrence. They don’t address the concerns of many frum people living in Monsey, who would also prefer less building. There is something between no building and stuffing as many units as possible into every corner. Frankly, if I weren’t frum, I would also be an “anti-semite”. Opposing all this development is anti-semitic. What else could it be. This is not just about building. The town is corrupt.
I thank the mods for allowing the link.
Although this article is about Ramapo, the same can be said for any community where a new population is moving in, from Harlem gentrifying to refugees in Utah. Most people want their community to stay the same and don’t want change.
As long as the law is not broken, there is not much that those who are against change can do. Of course, if the FBI comes down and arrests the developer for braking the law, all bets are off.
Mammele:
when it happens in Monsey it’s a travesty, while elsewhere it’s considered an economic boon.
Of course growth has to be dealt with safely, but to claim we were once a small village and are to remain so forever is unrealistic and shortsighted.
+1
papper:
In many parts of Monsey, real estate values have been stagnant to down for several years.
Where? I live in Monsey, and as far as I know the home values everywhere are rising. If anything, the homes in down-zoned, construction-prone parts of Monsey are rising the fastest.
papper – Happy 10 year anniversary! Thanks for stopping in!
Did not read the article, however, prior to the orthodox expansion, no one walked on the streets at night, especially in spring valley.
Now Ramapo PD mainly deals with medical emergencies, traffic issues and other minor stuff, it is very safe to walk in most areas any time of the day or night. this is a huge difference of how it was just a couple of years ago.
It is sometimes hard to separate honest objections to new developments in any community from objections based on the expectation that some locally (or nationally, or universally) unpopular ethnic group will occupy the development.
I don’t know enough about Ramapo/Monsey to determine whether there is merit to the objections of some developments. And as populations continue to grow, there will always be pressure everywhere to make room for all growing groups, whether frum Jews, Mexican immigrants, or left-handed one-legged soccer players.
Maybe they should move to Houston. They take pride in not having zoning laws.
In all seriousness I advocate for frum people to move to Scranton, PA
houses there are like $100,000. its very cheap to live there and you can easily drive to brooklyn in about 3 hours or so, so that you are close to family and friends
If Chasidim moved to Houston and established a neighborhood or town like Kiryas Joel, Houston would adopt zoning laws in a New York minute.
And that would be the safest outcome for the Houston Chasidim.
Mammele: Not all the photos are from Kaser- the street they specifically profiled was Herrick, which is either Spring Valley or unincorporated Ramapo, not sure which.
My mom grew up (frum) in one of the areas that turned chassidish (which is now unincorporated Ramapo). There were serious problems- not in the people themselves, but with a general culture clash. After a while, my grandparents sold their house for a good price (where it was replaced with another eighteen apartments), but it’s not unreasonable for people to feel like they’re being hounded out by the new people, especially given the intimidating amount of physical space the buildings take up.
Also, the infrastructure here in Monsey cannot support the volume. I live far from the main problem areas (though the developments are creeping closer and closer to my neighborhood) but it’s becoming impossible to drive through Monsey. My mom remembers 59 as a country road, not a parking lot.
So Monsey should embark on an infrastructure building project to upgrade the public roads to support a much greater volume of vehicular and pedestrian traffic.
MW13
Prices in Forshay are stagnant, at least based on sales the past few years.
One is not opposed to progress to oppose the conversion of a neighboorhood home into a school or putting 100+ units in an area that would generally have 10.
Increaseing the roads, Sewards etc is VERY expensive. It would likely require the entire county if not the state to pay for it.
I dont think the roads can be increased anyway, that would likely require moving buuilding as I dont think there is much empty space there
The sewars and water supply is a BIG deal (Kiryat Joel is fighting over this)
A friend of mine put it like this:
People have to decide if they want to run the city or be the persecuted minority, you can’t have both.
Writersoul: I didn’t say ALL photos are from Kaser, it’s just that the emphasis seemed misplaced. I don’t think that Kaser is what they are upset about, that’s not the neighborhood these guys are from/close to. To me it seemed like a scare tactic, sort of look how bad things can get if we don’t reign it in. The houses in Kaser seemed old, while at issue now are the new fancy condos built on relatively small lots.
I agree that there may be “overbuilding”, the question is how do we control it without clamping down totally. And why are small synagogues and Yeshivas often targeted when they are not usually loud or bad neighbors. Also, Shabbos only Shuls do not have parking issues.
Zdad: KJ would manage their water and sewer needs just fine if their “friendly” neighbors wouldn’t sue them every inch of the way FOR NO GOOD REASON. NYC doesn’t mind if they tap into their water supply (for the right price of course) but somehow it all gets litigated at every turn.
And Jersey City is a lot closer to Brooklyn than Scranton with plenty of cheap housing in some of its neighborhoods, but I don’t know how the crime rates compare.
Shuls and Yeshivas ARE bad neighbors, but not because of the Shuls or yeshivas themselves, but the traffic, double parking and congestion around davening times.
People who will walk 5 blocks to shul on shabbos, will drive during the week and take up all the parking spaces the people who live on the block need.
NYC is a sense of scale. Its a very large city and small increases arent a big deal to it. 20,000 people (Just a random number) isnt a big deal in a city of 8.5 million. However its a very big deal in a county of 400,000
The other problem is Taxes. Religious institutions dont pay property taxes. NYC has a large corporate tax base so its not really an issue. A small shul on 46th St in Borough park doesnt make a difference in NYC. it a big deal in Monsey where there are very few corporations to make up for theloss
edited a bit
I think my post lost its meaning due to the edit.
People being inconsiderate is really the problem.
Just because you are 5 mins late to Davening, doesnt mean you should make others pay a price. It is your fault not theirs
Zdad: NYC consists of a lot of neighborhoods, it’s not exactly one mumble-jumble.
And they can’t have it both ways when it comes to tax rolls. Crying foul when Yeshivas/synagogues don’t pay property taxes AND protesting all the developments going up at the same time that are greatly increasing the county’s tax revenues. Especially when these new residents barely cost them anything when it comes to schooling.
NYC’s tax base is not based on neighborhoods, its centralized meaning people in Staten Island pay lower property taxes than their neighbors in NJ because they benefit from the business taxes in Manhattan. People in Boro Park pay lower taxes because of the real estate in Manhattan. Its not like that in the Suburns. Rockland does not benefit from Manhattan real esate (on a local level, they do on a state level)
As a side note the largest real estate holder in NYC is the Catholic Church (and yes some people do want them to pay taxes). The Watchtower is selling their property in Dumbo worth about $6 Billion dollars tax free. No yeshiva in Brooklyn has any worth even close to $6 billion.
Even though the Frum people in Ramapo do not send their kids to public school, their school cost is not zero as we have debated this ad infinitum (Busing , Mandatory services , etc)
Also the Suburbs have other costs that city residents dont even realize , Like sewers, Police, Fireman, Road repair, Snow plowing, Sewers , Social Services and more because they have a lower tax base and those costs are borne by property taxes
I notice that no one has really addressed to building code violations which lead to dangerous safety issues. Adequate egress is essential to safety as is compliance with building code. As I see in Boro Park the existing infrastructure can not support the threefold increase in density. The streets can not be widened and increase in water, sewer and utility capacity is improbable in Boro Park as well as Monsey. Why not Scranton with cheap housingh a a lower cost of living?
There is a difference between shuls and yeshivas. Shuls have to be in the neighborhoods they serve. Yeshivos should be confined to main roads. Maybe Yeshivos already are in Monsey, but I don’t think so. Shuls need parking. What they frequently do is have a few parking places and claim the shul is primarily a Shabbos shul. Parking then becomes a big nuisance for all of the neighbors. I think the issue that makes people most unhappy, is the over building. It isn’t just Kaser. Anywhere there is land in the greater Monsey, you are at risk of someone shoehorning many units, in what was previously zoned for standalone single family houses on a minimum of half an acre. Frum people live in Monsey for the quiet and suburban lifestyle as well.
Boro Park can handle the increased sewer usage more than Monsey can because its part of the Greater Brooklyn and NYC system
100,000 more jews in a city of 8.5 million isnt a large percentage (also consider that some people leave). 100,000 jews in a county of 500,000 is a huge increase
ZD: “In all seriousness I advocate for frum people to move to Scranton, PA
houses there are like $100,000. its very cheap to live there and you can easily drive to brooklyn in about 3 hours or so, so that you are close to family and friends”
+1,000! And most importantly, it’s a great community! And it has the best school.
If it is just a question of visiting, I am sure Scranton is great. For people who work in NYC, not so great.
“For people who work in NYC, not so great.”
True, but there are some people who live there and work in other places and commute to work. They do it because they like the school and/or community there, so it’s worth it to them.
For people who learning is the most important thing, Scranton is a better choice as the cost of living is lower. While there are people who commute from lakewood to NYC, It is tough, Many people who do work there own some sort of business there. people can open up businesses in Lakewood.
Kiryat Joel is not so close to NYC either. It is a long commute for those who do commute. Many work closer to home.
Gateshead is not close to London at all and they seem to do OK there too
ZD: “For people who learning is the most important thing, Scranton is a better choice as the cost of living is lower.” +1
It is true that it is hard to find a job if you’re not in klei Kodesh. But there are a couple of people who commute to Monroe (not as far as NYC – I forgot how long it takes). There is also someone who works somewhere else, he only goes back and forth once a week since he only works 3 days a week, so he can only has to sleep over 2 nights a week, and he can be home the rest of the week.
Nowadays, I would think that it would be possible to get a job working from home online, so it wouldn’t matter where you live. In Eretz Yisroel, many people do that, and there are people who do that in the US as well.
It is sometimes hard to separate honest objections to new developments in any community from objections based on the expectation that some locally (or nationally, or universally) unpopular ethnic group will occupy the development
From a recent article in Rockland County Times:
The hearing that will ultimately determine whether Spring Valley Mayor Demeza Delhomme will be removed from office has started in Westchester County Supreme Court.
In opening statements before Special Referee John P. Clarke, the attorney for Petitioners Ken Del Vecchio, Esq. laid out a claim of five separate acts of malfeasance that warrant the drastic remedy of removing Mayor Delhomme from office due to public malfeasance.
According to Mr. Del Vecchio, petitioners will show to the court that Mayor Delhomme abused his office by unlawfully purchasing a 2014 motor vehicle without board approval, using the same village owned vehicle to travel to his vacation home in North Carolina on four separate occasions, all while using village owned credit cards and EZ-pass for the travels to North Carolina.
Additionally, it is claimed that Mayor Delhomme engaged in a practices of religious discrimination against the Hasidic community in Spring Valley as retaliation against Trustee Asher Grossman forming an alliance on the Village Board with the Mayor’s opponents, entered into unlawful contracts with vendors of the village and abused his power to fire or suspend village employees and officials including Building Inspector Walter Booker
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