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I asked a rav and he told me that two people should not say a beracha at once even if they are two men. I presume that that is because of “trei kallei la shaamei” (two voices are not heard) so they did not motzi the listeners. However, it probably does not possel the kiddushin. In general, berachot are not me’akev.
” Only Talmidei Chachamim whose entire existence is toiling in Torah, are qualified to establish new minhagim, or to change existing ones. “
Sometimes new minhagim arise as the result of Talmidei Chachamim, but it is likely that often minhagim do not have any such obvious source.
Examples:
Which Talmid Chacham instituted Hallel on Rosh Chodesh?
Which Talmid Chacham instituted Simchat Torah for the second day of Shemini Atzeret in galut?
Which Talmid Chacham instituted not eating kitniyot on Pesach?
Which Talmid Chacham added corn (maize) to the minhag of not eating kitniyot?
Which Talmid Chacham instituted men not wearing a talit gadol prior to marriage?
“whose entire existence is toiling in Torah”
Many Talmidei Chachamim are well learned in other areas as well, baruch HaShem.
GAW Wrote: “APY did supply the source, but brought the inferior maare makom. It is actually explicit in the Aruch Hashulchan, Even HaEzer 62:9”
What I wrote, and the source I brought.
“See aruch hashulchan even haezer, siman samech beis, sif tes.”
I think thats the same thing 🙂
“So it might be a fair Taana to claim that women not saying Sheva Brachos is just Al Pi circumstance (women couldn’t read for most of our history)”
What does reciting a bracha have to do with learning how to read? women have been lighting shabbos candles, going to the mikvah, eating food and reciting brachos on these for thousands of years. The gemara discusses women being motzi men with birchas hamazon. Clearly, reciting a bracha and the ability to read are not dependent one on the other. Moreover, who said women couldnt read in the time of the aruch hashulchan? They already printed seforim such as Tzena Urena for women, would have been pretty useless if they couldnt read.
I only brought the Aruch Hashulchan (who says it is implied in the Rambam) for the purpose of showing a source the birchas chasanim should be recited by someone other than the chosson (and I suppose by extension, the kallah). If one wanted to call up aunt sarah to recite one of the brachos under the chuppa, that would be an entirely different discussion.
This particular thread addresses the situation where the chassan and kallah jointly recited two brachos under their chuppa, the Aruch Hashulchan writes clearly that the minhag is for someone other than the chosson (and kallah) to recite these brachos.
The title of this thread is misleading, and wrong.
Current title is:
“Controversy In Israel – Woman says Sheva Brachos”
What title should say –
Controversy In Israel – Chosson and Kallah say Sheva Brachos
The “thing” with all the hebrew letter is a copy and paste from kitzur shulchan aruch that came out all wrong, including many of the hebrew letters that got lost in the paste.
“IIRC, Sheva Brachos are Me’akev (Kallah B’lo Bracha).”
I’ll have to look it up again, but I am fairly certain “kallah blo bracha” refers to birchas erusin, not birchas chasanim (IE sheva brachos).
Also, from the sugya in Kesubos (daf zayin amud beis I believe) and some of the rishonim (some, by no means all), it is possible the last 2, and almost certainly the very last of the sheva brachos the chosson would recite by himself by birchas hamazon if he was eating by himself. So it is not a chiddush in halacha that a chassan might at some time say this bracha. To extend it to a situation where there is clearly a minyan of other people and to go against the common minhag, that is certainly controversial.
“The question at hand is if Noshim are allowed to make the brocha.”
Let me play devils advocate. Are they forbidden from making other birchas hashevach (if they hear thunder for example are they forbidden from making the bracha)?
The question I’m posing is “if anyone is aware of a Mekor for Noshim not saying sheva brachos.”
‘?”? ??”? ? should apply to this as well.
Who said anything about chiyuv? You asked for a mekor for women not saying Sheva Brachos, and I gave you one.
Sheva brachos (or at least the last two) are optional?
Anyhow, I don’t think there would be a chilluk.
We don’t call women up for extra aliyos either.
?????? ???? ?? ?”? ?”? ????
And your comments regarding the Chofetz Chaim are offensive.
Again, there’s no reason chiyuv should make a difference. I showed you that the concept of zilusa comes from Rishonim (in that case regarding Megilla reading).
This has nothing to do with my country or yours, it has to do with being mevazeh a huge talmid chacham.
apy: I have been told by Rabbonim that we don’t hold like that Aruch HaShulchan because we hold those are Birchos HaShevach B’alma, not Tefillos for the Chassan V’Kallah.
DY: I have heard the Ta’ana advanced, at least as a possibility (though not a definite) that now that our women are much more learned and literate it is not as much of an issue of a Zilzul.
charlie:
Which Talmid Chacham instituted Hallel on Rosh Chodesh?
Unclear, but Rava accepted it. So it had the Haskama of Chazal.
Which Talmid Chacham instituted Simchat Torah for the second day of Shemini Atzeret in galut?
Again, this has the Haskama from Geonim and Rishonim. Just because we can’t name the individual who came up with that doesn’t change it.
Which Talmid Chacham instituted not eating kitniyot on Pesach?
Also from the Geonim or early Rishonim.
Which Talmid Chacham added corn (maize) to the minhag of not eating kitniyot?
Again unclear, but it was accepted by the Rama, so it has his stamp of approval.
Which Talmid Chacham instituted men not wearing a talit gadol prior to marriage?
This also has a stamp of approval from Talmidei Chachamim (albeit later ones).
I asked a rav and he told me that two people should not say a beracha at once even if they are two men. I presume that that is because of “trei kallei la shaamei” (two voices are not heard) so they did not motzi the listeners. However, it probably does not possel the kiddushin. In general, berachot are not me’akev.
That’s if a third party needs to Motzie. Is there anyone else in this instance who needs to hear the Brocha?
Sam, partially depends on what the zilusa is. There certainly aren’t enough grounds to change the din.
You answered Charlie well.
“it was accepted by”
Precisely. AFTER the minhagim had already come into existence. They were NOT instituted by Talmidei Chachamim.
Who says it wasn’t? If we have no record why assume anything?
why assume anything?
Because Charlie wants an excuse to extend this idea he’s proposing to his Open “Orthodox”, to justify their non-talmidei chachomim instituting their new age “minhags”.
charlie: It’s clear in the Poskim that there isn’t a difference there. But what’s your point? We can establish a Minhag either by a)a major Talmid Chacham promoting it and the people following, or b)the people proposing/doing something and a major Talmid Chacham approving. You seem to be trying to say something very different.
“Heichan Matzinu that an Isha can make any brocha that requires a minyan to say it,”
Are you certain a minyan is required to say the last 2 of the “sheva brachos”. See the many rishonim on the sugya in kesubos who say if the chassan is eating alone he says the bracha.
I dont know what the psak is. I do know what the minhag is. The minhag is that someone, other than the chassan and kallah say all the brachos, despite the fact that they might be birchas hashevach.
“Heichan Matzinu that an Isha can make any brocha that requires a minyan to say it,”
See the Meiri and/or Rama in regards to Megillah, iirc.
popa_bar_abba,
What I wrote to you in this thread was way too harsh and unnecessary. I apologize.
As a principle I won’t buy any seforim from stores that sell abominable womens tallis. Which means 90 percent of the Judaica stores in the world I cannot buy books from…
A few weeks ago on Shabbos night, a woman said kaddish in my Chabad shule. Don’t know who she was, but I burned with disgust. Disgust! I don’t know how the sages turned a person into a heap of bones, but I would have done it and stuff the paperwork…
And there were women saying bircas kohanim at the Kotel.
May Hashem slap down the yester h for the brazen affront to His honour. Or I’ll do it myself.
A few weeks ago on Shabbos night, a woman said kaddish in my Chabad shule. Don’t know who she was, but I burned with disgust. I don’t know how the sages turned a person into a heap of bones, but I would have done it and stuff the paperwork…
You “burned with disgust” and wanted death for a woman because she praised HKBH?
How about having some disgust for some of the things that are *truly* wrong with our communities?
The Wolf
I did not say I wanted to kill her for her disrespect. Only to disintegrate her. I should think the distinction is apparent. She can do that garbage in a reform “synagogue”, not in my orthodox shule. That impudent woman knew what she was being deviant.
I did not say I wanted to kill her for her disrespect. Only to disintegrate her. I should think the distinction is apparent.
Big deal. Same thing. Bottom line is that you wished that she was dead.
She can do that garbage
Praising HKBH is garbage?
in a reform “synagogue”, not in my orthodox shule. That impudent woman knew what she was being deviant.
And you’re a mind reader too. Wow.
Again, I ask, how about you save your outrage for things that are far worse in our community than a woman praising HKBH.
The Wolf
Excellence, I hope you don’t mind that I want to destroy you. I don’t want to kill you, I just want you to be consumed in a timeless void and be gone from this plane of existence.
????”? ?????? ??”? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????
???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ????
????? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????, ???? ?? ??
???”? ????”? ?????? ??”? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???????,
???????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? “?? ????” ???? ???? ???????, ?????
?????? ????? ????, ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??, ???? ????? ????? ???.
This is on top of the other ramifications
This is on top of the other ramifications
And no where does anyone say that this is deserving of death or a curse. Had he said that it was wrong of her to do so, I probably would have said nothing. But in wishing death upon someone over this (and not having the same or greater outrage for people who do far worse things) is just plain wrong.
The Wolf
I’m familiar with a number of orthodox shuls where women say kaddish. Some barely above a whisper and some loud enough to be heard across the shul. I’m not a posek to say it’s right or wrong. Those shuls though have recognized rabbonim and if they allow it in their shul I’m not about to burn with “righteous indignation”.
*Smiles* No offence taken. I’m an easy going person.
*Smiles* No offence taken. I’m an easy going person.
I would argue that if you’re wishing death on other people, then you’re *not* easy going. It’s easy to be easy-going with people who agree with you. The real test of being “easy-going” is how you react with people you disagree with.
The Wolf
Actually, if I am getting fired up like that, it’s an indicator I need to do more acts of kindness, according to Likutei Moharan 100 and masechta Berachos. When Torah knowledge overbalances gemilus chassadim, it’s time to stock up on the latter.
apushatayid,
Kaddish Yasom is an old Sha’aleh, going back to eurpoe
Women making A Beracha is totally different,besides ????? ???
I don’t know anything about the Halachic issues involved with a woman saying Sheva Berachos, but there is one big difference between a woman saying sheva berachos on the one hand and a woman saying Kaddish or women making a zimmun on the other. The big difference is that no one is gaining anything by the woman saying the sheva brachos as opposed to the man – there is no extra Mitzvah being done, and hence there is no reason to do something that could be considered a breach in the Mesorah. In the other cases, a Mitzvah is being done that would not have been done otherwise. Even in the other cases, it MAY be problematic, but it seems to me that in this case it is DEFINITELY problematic since there is no extra Mitzvah being done, so it SEEMS pretty clear that it is not l’sheim Shamayim.
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