Controversy In Israel – Woman says Sheva Brachos

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  • #617813
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Controversy In Israel: Rabbi Piron Allows Chosson And Kallah To Recite The 6th And 7th Brochos Together Under The Chupah

    So I looked in Shulchan Aruch AH 62:5 and he is explicit that children and slaves may not make the brocha, but does not mention Noshim. I’m curious if anyone is aware of a Mekor for Noshim not saying sheva brachos.

    #1180848
    Joseph
    Participant

    Mesorah does not suffice?

    #1180849
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    According to the article the chosson and kallah said it simultanious. So it was said by a man

    #1180850
    Sam2
    Participant

    GAW: See Pitchei Teshuvah Even HaEzer 62:2, IIRC.

    #1180851
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So they said it together. So basically acknowledging that she can’t say it.

    So if she’s already acknowledging that, how does this even make her feel good?

    #1180852
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    According to the article the chosson and kallah said it simultaneous. So it was said by a man

    Without question that would be invalid, as only one of them needs to make the bracha, the other would be a bracha l’vatalah.

    Mesorah does not suffice?

    No. We change Mesorah all the time, depending on who is is charge and the outcomes that they want. Besides, you would have to prove that such a Mesorah exists.

    #1180853
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Sam2 – 62:14. Somewhat relevant (Noshim can’t be Panim Chadashos because they are not part of the minyan), but not answering the question.

    PBA – Wouldn’t surprise me if they asked to say it together to show they are equally being Koneh each other 🙂

    #1180854
    Joseph
    Participant

    Besides, you would have to prove that such a Mesorah exists.

    How do you prove a Mesorah – a Mesorah cannot be unwritten? Thousands of years of practice doesn’t constitute a Minhag?

    #1180855
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    PBA – Wouldn’t surprise me if they asked to say it together to show they are equally being Koneh each other 🙂

    Thats what I think. I know sometimes when Rabbis are doing Orthodox wedding for non relgious couple, the issue of the Mikvah comes up and it can be hard to convience the woman to go, so the Rabbi will suggest that they both go in order that the woman will go

    #1180856

    ZD, for taharas hamishpachah it works, but for kiddushin, it invalidates it.

    #1180857
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    How do you prove a Mesorah – a Mesorah cannot be unwritten? Thousands of years of practice doesn’t constitute a Minhag?

    Nope. Do we also have a “Mesorah” not to eat potatoes? We didn’t eat them for thousands of years.

    I note that you are not disagreeing that we change mesorah on the whim of whomever is in charge.

    Minhag is to do an action, or do it in a specific manner.

    Doing something one way just because no one thought to ask the question is not a minhag or mesorah. In fact, from the SA who does not exclude Noshim, there is an implication that our mesorah is to allow Noshim to make the brocha.

    #1180858
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DaasYochid – and if I were really conniving, I would say they did it on purpose so they can have an out if they want a divorce and not have to go through the religious system.

    #1180859
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Thats what I think. I know sometimes when Rabbis are doing Orthodox wedding for non relgious couple, the issue of the Mikvah comes up and it can be hard to convience the woman to go, so the Rabbi will suggest that they both go in order that the woman will go

    That sounds idiotic and pandering, and I don’t know why the women would fall for it.

    Also, who even cares. If she’ll never go again, why is there such an inyan do make her go before the wedding?

    #1180860
    Joseph
    Participant

    DY: I’ve heard some suggest that it is better for non-religious couples to not have a valid kiddushin. (I’m not suggesting this is a correct opinion.)

    #1180861

    Popa, once is better than none, and there is a chance she’ll continue.

    #1180862
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If she’ll never go again, why is there such an inyan do make her go before the wedding?

    In Israel you can only have a Halachic wedding. The only way not to is to go to Cyprus , Prague or somewhere out of the country.

    The Rabbi is trying to navigate to give the couple a proper jewish wedding otherwise there will be no jewish wedding, they will either live in sin or go to cyprus.

    I suspect here, there was somthing similar going on, the couple might have refused to make Sheva Brochot and the Rabbi said something like fine you can both say it. In order to get at least the man to say it.

    #1180863
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “DY: I’ve heard some suggest that it is better for non-religious couples to not have a valid kiddushin”

    I think it was already clarified that is what they do by OO weddings

    #1180864
    apushatayid
    Participant

    It is a chiddush that a woman wished to make the bracha under the chuppah, even her own? The wacky women of the wall, for example, are way past that. The chiddush is just how far some “orthodox rabbis” are willing to bend instead of taking a stand.

    #1180865
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba,

    Also, who even cares. If she’ll never go again, why is there such an inyan do make her go before the wedding?

    Are mitzvos so unimportant in your eyes that performing one even once is nothing to care about?

    #1180866
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    DY: I’ve heard some suggest that it is better for non-religious couples to not have a valid kiddushin. (I’m not suggesting this is a correct opinion.)

    Should we then refrain, if given the opportunity, from helping a non-religious woman light Shabbos candles, because she might not keep the rest of Shabbos?

    #1180867
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    popa bar abba: As usual, your comments are reprehensible. So, going to the mikvah- even once- is not meritorious??? Quoting your words: “it is is idiotic and pandering”. so, going to the mikvah and having a fully kosher wedding is pandering???

    Boruch Hashem thst you are not in charge of weddings in Eretz Yisroel.

    #1180868
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram: That comparison is off. The reasoning of the proponents of the idea I mentioned, as I understand it, is because in case of divorce of a non-religious couple they will likely not obtain a halachic get, thus causing much greater problems down the line. That, and/or because they are less likely to be faithful.

    #1180869
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popa bar abba: As usual, your comments are reprehensible. So, going to the mikvah- even once- is not meritorious??? Quoting your words: “it is is idiotic and pandering”. so, going to the mikvah and having a fully kosher wedding is pandering???

    Boruch Hashem thst you are not in charge of weddings in Eretz Yisroel.

    I won’t accuse you of always doing this, but you’re flying off the handle here for no reason.

    Firstly, the pandering is the idea that after she hesitates to go to the mikva, the rabbi says your fiance will also. It is pandering, because if she didn’t want to do mikva because she thinks hilchos nidda is unfeminist, then having her chosson also do it for no reason doesn’t change anything. It’s also idiotic.

    Second, we do chuppas nidda all the time–It’s a fully kosher wedding. And while it is meritorious for her to not do issurei kares for the next few weeks, I don’t think of it as being very important in the context that she doesn’t plan on doing it for the rest of her life.

    #1180870
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Avram in MD – No shaychus. Lighting candles won’t affect anything else. If the couple is really married, then if the Isha is Mezaneh or leaves without a Kosher Get, there is an Issur Eishes Ish and the children are Mamzerim.

    Better off to not start with it.

    As opposed to Mikva, where even one Issur Kares not done would be well worth it.

    #1180871
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    apushatayid – I’m not convinced that an Isha making the brocha would be “bending” Halacha, and no one here has shown me otherwise.

    #1180872
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Second, we do chuppas nidda all the time–It’s a fully kosher wedding. And while it is meritorious for her to not do issurei kares for the next few weeks, I don’t think of it as being very important in the context that she doesn’t plan on doing it for the rest of her life.

    Chas V’Shalom!!!!!

    To not do issurei kares for a few weeks is a big accomplishment, not only for the Rov, but for the Isha as well. We, as a Klal, are Mechayiv to minimize the Issurim of the Klal, and prevent others from doing Issurim. Any way to minimize such Issurim is highly praiseworthy.

    #1180873
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    That comparison is off. The reasoning of the proponents of the idea I mentioned, as I understand it, is because in case of divorce of a non-religious couple they will likely not obtain a halachic get, thus causing much greater problems down the line.

    If you tell a non-religious woman that tonight is Shabbos and to light, and she lights, then she knows that it is Shabbos. And any subsequent potential melachos done would carry a more serious penalty than if she did not remember it was Shabbos in the first place.

    #1180874
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    gavra_at_work,

    Better off to not start with it.

    So it’s better to sacrifice the souls we have before us right now because of a potential down-the-road risk to future potential souls?

    #1180875
    Redleg
    Participant

    The problem I see is so much halachic. It’s more a metaphysical issue. Can a person bless him (or her) self? The purpose of saying the sheva berachos is for the mevorchim to invoke berachah on the choson/kalah. By doing themselves, the choson/kalah in this case are losing the benefit of birchas hedyot (and not so hedyot).

    #1180876
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram, she doesn’t need to light to know that it is Shabbos. And, more importantly, it is Shabbos for her whether she lights or not, and she’s still obligated in Shabbos. If she doesn’t have a halachic marriage, she isn’t an eishes ish or married, and she doesn’t have the obligations of an eishes ish.

    Again, I’m not being a proponent of this idea, merely explaining it. A major problem with the idea is that if they’re not halachicly married they are sinning each time they’re together. [Though that sinning is of a lesser nature than the proponents of this are concerned may occur later if they are halachicly married.] Though, Rav Moshe (unlike Rav Henkin) holds non-Orthodox performed marriages are, indeed, not halachicly valid.

    #1180877
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    So it’s better to sacrifice the souls we have before us right now because of a potential down-the-road risk to future potential souls?

    What sacrifice? Living out of wedlock in an exclusive relationship is probably at worst a D’Rabbanan (even according to the Rambam). Also see my point to PBA above.

    #1180878
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “apushatayid – I’m not convinced that an Isha making the brocha would be “bending” Halacha, and no one here has shown me otherwise.”

    GAW. Why are you harping on the woman. The Chassan too. Im not an expert, but the nusach habracha indicates someone other than the chosson and/or kallah should be saying the bracha.

    #1180879
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    but the nusach habracha indicates someone other than the chosson and/or kallah should be saying the bracha.

    This is very more likely a case of B’shas HaChak meaning if neither of them say, nboody says it

    #1180880
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW. Why are you harping on the woman. The Chassan too. Im not an expert, but the nusach habracha indicates someone other than the chosson and/or kallah should be saying the bracha.

    I guess I’m looking for an expert 🙂

    Truthfully, I had no Hava Aminah that the Chassan can’t say one of the Brachos, IIRC I’ve seen it happen. I could be wrong, and look forward to your sources.

    #1180881
    apushatayid
    Participant

    ? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???, ??????

    ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??, ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????, ???????

    ??????? ??? ???? ?? ??????, ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????, ????? ???? ????

    #1180882
    Sam2
    Participant

    There is nothing wrong with either the Chassan or the Kallah making the Brachah (as far as the Brachos being about themselves; I’m not convinced by GAW yet). They are not to or about these individuals. They are third-person Brachos about the Simcha of a wedding. We’re blessing Hashem, not the couple. The couple can bless Hashem as much as the rest of us.

    #1180883
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    popa bar abba : I am.oh so happy, to see that you think it is idiotic for a kallah to go to the mikvah-regardless of her future intentions. Not to mention that she may appreciate this part of taharas hamishpacha and decide to keep doing this. Yup, very idiotic.

    As I mentioned, the one good thing is that you are not in charge of weddings in Israel.

    #1180884
    big deal
    Participant

    I always wondered what the purpose of the rabbanut is in terms of forcing a kosher marriage onto all couples in Israel. It creates a whole host of issues including being unable to ascertain the kosher status of a Jewish child. Why not let it go. Everyone who wants to keep the Halacha knows where to go.

    I’m not taking a stance. I’m trying to understand the consenquences.

    #1180885
    apushatayid
    Participant

    GAW. See aruch hashulchan even haezer, siman samech beis, sif tes.

    Source enough regarding who should make birchas chasanim?

    #1180886
    #1180887
    Joseph
    Participant

    “Mesorah does not suffice?”

    No. We change Mesorah all the time

    GAW, are you saying that you don’t believe in mesorah and feel mesorah can be thrown out at will?

    #1180888
    M
    Participant

    “DY: I’ve heard some suggest that it is better for non-religious couples to not have a valid kiddushin”

    I think it was already clarified that is what they do by OO weddings

    I’m sure that this sort of question at least occasionally arises in chareidi communities as well — children who we know will not be shomer shabbos, kashrus, probably taharas hamishpacha, and yet are willing to take part in a frum wedding for their parents’ and families’ wishes. When this happens, and I’m sure it does, do chareidi rabbonim avoid making a proper nissuin? I would be surprised if the choices they make are any different. I am interested if those with some experience can share that.

    #1180889
    mw13
    Participant

    I happen to know of an unfortunate story where somebody’s son became unobservant, and a well-known (and knowledgeable) Rov was indeed mesader his Kiddushin. Not sure why though.

    As for the chosson and kallah making the brachos, apushtayid has supplied a source (the Aruch HaShulchan) that somebody other than the chosson and kallah should do it, and as GAW pointed out, having both of them make it is certainly a bracha li’vatalah.

    Not sure what more we need…

    #1180890
    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    For as long as I can remember, there have been persistent whisperings that in the earlier years of the medinah, weddings of many secular kibbutzniks were deliberately conducted using ???? ?????? so that the chuppa would be invalid. The justification was that marital morals were, how to put it delicately, not strongly observed (after marriage!). So, to avoid ????? ??? ??? the Rabbanut conducted itself in the aforementioned manner. Whether this is true or not — and whether this is da’as Torah of the gedolei Torah — I cannot say.

    Regarding the matter of mesora and changing it. Some people seem to think that OK, halachic questions need a posek who is a Talmid Chacham to rule on them. But, if something seems to be a “mere” custom, well then every Tom, Dick, and Harry, any ba’al habayis, especially if he learned a bit in yeshiva once upon a time — is a qualified opinion on matters of minhag and mesora. Only Talmidei Chachamim whose entire existence is toiling in Torah, are qualified to establish new minhagim, or to change existing ones. These practices are a part of our jurisprudence no less than “explicit” (?????) halachos. WE do NOT meddle with mesora! Nor do we “make changes all the time.” Sometimes, there are differing opinions — among the poskei halacha — on certain customs. The yekkishe minhag regarding waiting between fleishigs and milchigs comes to mind. There are others as well. And please don’t counter this with cases that the gemara says ??? ??? ??? ??? ???, because those were cases where there was no definite minhag in that particular place. So, under such circumstances, there could be a decision to “go see how people conduct themselves.” And that too was a halachic ruling for that specific situation. It never meant, “if it’s ‘just’ a minhag, we can always do whatever we like.” Chas ve’shalom. It’s worth remembering that the earliest deviations of what turned into the Reform Movement began by meddling with “mere” minhagim (observing Yomtov sheini shel galuyos, reciting yekum purkan on Shabbos).

    #1180891
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    As for the chosson and kallah making the brachos, apushtayid has supplied a source (the Aruch HaShulchan) that somebody other than the chosson and kallah should do it, and as GAW pointed out, having both of them make it is certainly a bracha li’vatalah.

    BSD

    APY did supply the source, but brought the inferior maare makom. It is actually explicit in the Aruch Hashulchan, Even HaEzer 62:9, where he says that Birchas Chassanim is a Tefilah for the Chasan and Kallah, and therefore it is appropriate that someone else should be mispallel for them.

    However, even the Aruch Hashulchan who is Maarich does not say it is not allowed B’dieved (meaning that the Brachos still count L’Gabei the din of “Kallah B’lo Brachah”), and does not mention anything about Noshim not being allowed to make the brachos. In fact, since he brings the reason of the brachos being a tefilah, it would seem that he would allow Noshim to make the brachos.

    #1180892
    Sam2
    Participant

    ay (and Joseph): I think you missed GAW’s point, because I’m guessing that he agrees with everything you said. I agree with everything you said. He’s just pointing out (and I agree), that if an issue never came up, it cannot be called a Minhag. We can’t call something a Minhag to/not to act in a certain way unless we can assume that a Talmid Chacham, somewhere, approved of it. That’s why it isn’t a breach of Mesorah to use indoor plumbing, or to drive a car. Sure, we never drove cars for 3000 years. But that wasn’t Al Pi Mesorah. It was Al Pi circumstance. So it might be a fair Taana to claim that women not saying Sheva Brachos is just Al Pi circumstance (women couldn’t read for most of our history) and there was minimal interest to until now, so maybe it’s fair to say that the Shaila was never asked and a Minhag was never established. I’m currently leaning no (meaning that it was feasible for a long time so we can say that the proper practice is not to), but I hear GAW’s point and it is far from an attack on our Mesorah.

    #1180893

    Gavra, they still violated the halachah.

    Also, isn’t ??? ??? ?? ?????? an issue?

    #1180894

    Sam, the Aruch Hashulchan says that it not being the chosson is the minhag.

    #1180895
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Given the fact this is a B’shas H’hack meaning its likely if Halacha is followed to the letter of the law, this couple would either not marry (and live together) or get married in Cyprus. Using the Aruch HaShulchan which forbids it doesnt really make sense

    People who are not relgious and maybe even hostile to religion, you cannot force them to do something, you have to try to coax them and find B’di Eveds

    #1180896
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DaasYochid – I agreed already that in this situation, they violated Halacha.

    The question I’m posing is ” if anyone is aware of a Mekor for Noshim not saying sheva brachos. “

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