Confusion on Lubavitch.

@AvriaDeArah I do believe that Rav Schneerson ZT”L denied being Moshiach on several occasions and I think there’s a letter where he criticizing a Lubavitch rov for claiming that he’s Moshiach. It’s likely that the extent in which people believed him to be Moshiach was kept from him and he simply didn’t know how widespread it is. The last few years of his life, he had a stroke and was unable to communicate much. During that time, the meshichists became a lot more brazen and would openly sing “Yechi” in front of him to the anger of the agudists. His inaction was taken to mean that he accepts their beliefs. I’ve heard that one of his doctors, a frum Talmid Chacham, had a difficult time keeping meshichists away from his bedside. He said that they would ask their Rebbe questions and take every mumble and grunt as they chose to interpret it.

Aposhitehyid, I’ll explain how your statement doesn’t hold by way of moshol. Imagine i ask you “what’s the best way to let the water out of a bathtub – a cup or a pot?” You might say pot, but the truth is that the beat way to do it is by unstopping it, an option that i neglected to mention. In your question, you are presenting only two options – either it’s against halacha or it just doesn’t make sense to me.

The other option is that it is against daas torah and does not make sense.

Edited

That’s unstopping the bathtub.

It actually is against halacha. It’s kneged the Rambam and all of chazal. The mashiach isn’t a person who brings the geula. Rather, the person who brings the geula then becomes mashiach. Of course, Hashem brings the geula, but the mashiach will do the necessary steps he needs to do. Also, the Rambam says mashiach must be from Dovid and also Shlomo. Most people today who can trace themselves to Dovid, are not tracing from Shlomo too. It’s very rare actually to find someone who can say he’s from Shlomo, I’ve definitely never heard of anyone. There are probably only a handful of people like this. It’s a peleh because anyone who can trace to Dovid makes a big deal out of it. Maybe this is all part of hashgacha, so that the mashiach will be someone humble and not a big macher. Ani rochev al hachamor

Ani reflects the hardest meseches, Eruvin, Nidah and Yevomus. Maybe, they are all related to unity where the center is the closest. We find, it says beficha, ubilvovecha laasoso. Says the Rabbenu Bachaya that the sides turn to the center so that the mouth, expression is from the heart and the action is fron the heart. Husband and wife have the closest relationship. Marrying a brother’s wife is somewhat further and bringing people together through an eiruv is even further. They should all turn to center. To understand the hardest meseches we need unity which correct sinas chinam, futile hatred and bring Meshiach in our time, Amen.

@aviradearah I think Rav Schneerson’s letter denying that he’s Moshiach is well known amongst Chabadskers (as all of his letters are). Perhaps someone from Chabad can shed some light on it? All I know is what anti-meshichist Chabadniks have told me, that it exists.

Dovid melech yisrael chai vkayam

R. Soloveichik z”tl himself signed a letter with the intention of condemning yidden from claiming those who believed the Rebbe was Moshiach as heretics.

Obviously if a chabadnik claimed the Rebbe was HaShem in a guf that is a major problem, to think he was Moshiach is a non issue.

Lost spark- according to his son he had years of anguish from that letter that he believed he was tricked into signing.

We all can agree Yechi is catchy

Avirahdarah:
Chabad dosnt way the Rebbe is moshiach vadai
“Moshiach will use ruach hakodesh to identify the yichus of the shvatim, starting with shevet levi – he will clarify who is a cohen, Levi, etc. “All of yisroel will gather unto him”.”
Just interestingly my grandfather once wrote a letter to the Rebbe and he didn’t write hakohen (he is a kohen, so am I) as the Rebbe when he sent the letter back wrote hakohen and underlined it
Common saychel:
“I have a friend who is a hatzola member and they had a call that someone striped and was running around yelling he is Moshiach, does that make him moshicach because he said so?”
But is he for sure not moshiach?

Syag:
Ever heard the expression don’t judge a book by it’s cover?
Also that’s not the point. The point is that anyone from beis Dovid can be moshiach EVEN if he runs around naked, that doesn’t disqualify him

Syag:
Of course, but you never know😉
But do U get my point?

@avirah Bais Rabeinu She’Bavel is the sefer, parshas chaya Sarah 5751 his public dvar torah

Philosopher, not every cooky perspective is apikorsus…the ones who think that he’s greater than the rambam, still alive, or moshiach would not render their food problematic (though i would not eat in a deluded person’s house). The halachik issue according to most opinions (see above) is the notion that the rebbe is either A) god incarnate B) infinite as god C) controls the world as a partner with god D) divisible part of god (not the “chelek eloka mimaal” that every jew has, the spark of godliness)

Any of the above can be derived from the statement that a rebbe is the essence (atzmus) of god wrapped in a body.

770 is also gematria חמור בלי דעת (which are also ראשי תיבות חב”ד). Does that prove anything?

Syag, how was he tricked into signing the letter?

I think every last one of you out to pull out a likutei sichos from the tens of volumes and learn it. Everyone’s wasting their time argueing because nobody on this forum knows everything (including me) about lubavitch. We need to unite כֻּלָּֽנוּ כְּאֶחָד בְּאוֹר פָּנֶֽיךָ and respect each other. Every single person knows that the Rebbe never said he was Hashem That’s a fact. But people for some reason feel the need to bash it because what if maybe Moshiach is a Lubavitcher?
I don’t think I’m able to put on videos, but I would If I could, where the Rebbe CLEARLY says he SHOULD NOT be called Moshiach for there is no way to determine. I simply ignore the fact that a MINORITY of lubavitchers believe in this mishugas. Tell me how many Yellow flags you can see by the simchas beis hashoevah is crown heights. Barely any. Maybe 5 at most. If a majority of lubavitchers were mishichists, then the whole kingston avenue would look like a sheet of yellow flags in the air.

I think I may have to write up an article with all the sources, all the videos of the rebbe, all the stuff, and show how even though you can find one lubavitch website which Is a barely-visited website has a video with some meshugene and some text before the video saying a totaly-biased opinion, you will not find anywhere from the rebbe that says he is Moshiach.
Find me a single page on chabda.org or lubavitch.com that says the rebbe is Moshiach and is alive physically. I challenge you.

Ein Sof, which can be used to refer to as Hakadosh Baruch Hu, has more than one meaning. The Rebbe was on a higher connection to Hashem. He channeled the will of Hashem from Hashem to us. That doesn’t mean Hashem ‘needed’ him, Hashem doesn’t need anyone or anything. He did connect with Hashem and he was used to channel the Ratzon Hashem to Am Yisrael. He wasn’t ‘unlimited’.
It means he never stopped until his ptirah. He never planned to stop. He was going to continue for as long as Hashem will keep him. And that’s what he did. From the time he became rebbe to his very last day, he worked to strengthen yiddishkeit and our connection to Hashem.

Regardless, really picture when you’ll come up to Beis Din Shel Maala after 120 and imagine what questions they will ask you.
Now, what has a bigger chacne of a question they will ask you:
Either: Why didn’t you harass Lubavitch
Or: Why DID you harass Lubavitch? Look at how many tens of Thousands (Yes, tens of thousands) of Mitzvos they have made happen. Look at how much yidden now have a kesher with Hashem because they put on teffilin because of chabad! Look at how many baalei teshuvah were made, and they have children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. and all because of CHabad!
Do You seriously in a hundred years think they’ll ask the first option?
And maybe you want to see how Dovid Lichtenstein never stops praising Chabad and The Rebbe. ANd for your information, he is a yeshivishe guy who learned in lakewood.

I wish Hatzlachah to everyone, (even the haters), and Moshiach should come Bimeheira Biyamenu Mamosh!

I live in the land of yellow flags so you guys are a pleasure to hear. But you are a minority in the city I live in.
I hope you will stop and think about the fact that we are harassing and hating and bashing is an invention of your community, perhaps to keep you seperate from us, angry and ready to defend against us, who knows. But if you think and look hard before you let it fly out of your mouth you will see that it is more of an illusion. It was made to create a mindset. It’s like the kvetchy kid who accuses everyone who snaps at them a bully. Eventually you begin to believe it yourself. Perhaps it isn’t all these questioners who are the haters.

Syag is right – no one is “bashing” or “hating”. We are bringing up issues that we have either encountered personally or learned about elsewhere (in my case it’s both). Messianics claim that they are the majority, and so-called “antis” claim that they are.

Chabad.org is run by many types of people, it is not monolithic, but even most messianics are smart enough not to advertise their beliefs to people who aren’t frum, that website’s main clientele. Also, I’m sure they’ve come to an agreement whereby they don’t deny or confirm the messianic message on their main website.

Many major chabad organizations are messianic. Can you explain why at the kinnus hashluchim, Moshe kotlarsky (vice president of chabad’s chinuch organization) said a corrupted version of veyehi noam as “”may the Rebbe look upon our gathering favorably, his presence is here with us now and may he grant our requests”

A prominent chabad rebbetzin named Leah Lipszyc said in a 98″ magazine called “horizons”:
“Rebbe,” I thought. “I know you’re here with us. I know you help people in difficult situations. I think this fits the criteria – please help us now. And do it quickly, please, before one of these guys snaps and decides to shoot.”

Shlomo cunin, head of west coast chabad, said in a video that the world will see “that it is the rebbe who runs the world”

The lubavitcher rebbe himself writes in toras menachem volume 1 162-163, that one should have no doubt that the rebbe is “the baal habayis of the world, can do anything” and that one should not think that one can “hide from him”. Granted this material is in parenthesis; i do not know if the rebbe himself actually wrote it, or if the man responsible for printing it included it, but either way it is found in the sefer, and not contested – maybe one of our chabad apologists can shed some light on this specific statement?

Either way, go to crown heights and see how many yarmulkahs have yechi on them if the above isn’t sufficient. I also know of chabad expatriates who say that even the “antis” (the fact that they identify themselves based on their non-affiliation with messianism is telling) really think that he’ll be moshiach when he returns, but that people aren’t “ready” for his “revelation”.

Avirah – those tefillos you are repeating are no different than any we would give when asking someone in olam haemes to intervene on our behalf. It is true that if they are davening for the Rebbe himself to assist, ch”v, and not for him to plea to Hashem to intervene than that is a problem. But those words as is are not problematic.

The next quotes you brought up are a different story.

Syag, we ask tzadikim (and malachim) to intercede on our behalf TO Hashem, that He should grant our requests. Kotlarsky said that the rebbe should “grant our requests” – him looking down from shomayim is not the issue here, as any good Jew looks down from shomayim at times when they are permitted to do so (a descendent’s wedding, etc). I think you may have missed that part in the statement he made. He also said it in front of thousands of shluchim; representatives of chabad literally all over the world.

Yukel, telling people who disagree with you that they don’t “know the first thing about (insert topic)” only shows insecurity. Also, chasidus is not part and parcel with “Judaism” or even kabalah. There are hundreds of thousands of jews who practice judaism who are not involved in either. I don’t claim to be an expert on chasidus, but the satmar rov definitely was, and he criticized the lubavitcher rebbe frequently, referring to him as a “shoteh”.

That being said, I believe I know the first thing about judaism, which is that there is one G-d, infinite, non-physical, indivisible, and “one”, with nothing else in the universe comparable to Him. Your words contradict that clarion monotheism one appreciates from having a sound chinuch and keeping away from false ideologies, from within or without.

The fact that you have to distinguish your beliefs from Christianity (or rather, your understanding of Christianity, more on that soon) is telling. I do not have any beliefs on Hashem which run close enough to Christianity that i need to explain the difference. Christianity does not believe that god was “somewhere else” when he was cv”s in yushke. Christianity believes in a Trinity, a god that has 3 manifestations, one being the “father”, the “son”, and some sort of spirit. It’s nonsense, because Hashem’s oneness is indivisible, and they accept that He is one, not three. But lishitasam, the “father” part was there running the world while the “son” part was busy saving humanity from sin by dying on a cross.

What Christianity and neo-chabad have in common is that they are ascribing divinity to something else besides the one true G-d. Neo-chabad saying the words “running the world” are very specific. We don’t say that the area between the badim “runs the world” either. Never in Jewish history has anyone said that something runs the world besides Hashem himself. No one said it about Moshe rabeinu, or any of our other tzadikim.

Hashem reveals himself in many ways. When you see hashgocha pratis in your dealings with goyim, Hashem has revealed himself through the goy – are you going to now look at him as a tzinor for shechina? As someone who enjoys chasidus, it definitely has shown me ways of seeing hashgocha that I wouldn’t have otherwise known – chasidus is beautiful, rebbe-worship is not.

According to your explanation that when you say a man “runs the world” it really means that he is a kli to show the revelation of godliness…what does that have to do with running the world? Tzadikim sit in gan eden and enjoy the ziv hashechina. They’re not any more meyuchod with Hashem than any other neshoma.

I am not farbycoffe. I don’t know what your making up. Why would you think I have a second name?

“Can you explain why at the kinnus hashluchim, Moshe kotlarsky (vice president of chabad’s chinuch organization) said a corrupted version of veyehi noam as “”may the Rebbe look upon our gathering favorably, his presence is here with us now and may he grant our requests”
I promise you he was saying that people feel the presence that they feel when they were by the rebbe when he was alive. He didn’t say that he was alive or even there. He said presence. That doesn’t mean physically. Of course your gonna start being a lamdan but that’s fine because you know your just asking silly kashyas.

“A prominent chabad rebbetzin named Leah Lipszyc said in a 98″ magazine called “horizons”:
“Rebbe,” I thought. “I know you’re here with us. I know you help people in difficult situations. I think this fits the criteria – please help us now. And do it quickly, please, before one of these guys snaps and decides to shoot.”
Do you actually think she meant he was “HERE”??? No, if any one has half a brain they will realize it’s an emotional thing. He doesn’t have to be here physically to help people in difficult situations. Iv’e went to his Ohel many times before, and Iv’e been helped. ever heard of kivrei tzadikim? Why would anyone go to a grave? The Answer is, that you can daven there. And the tzadik will help push the message closer to Hashem.

Harav Moshe Kotlarsky Shlit’a, the Vice-Chairman of Merkos L’inyonei Chinuch, the Flagship Mosad of Chabad, did not say a single word that said the rebbe is still alive b’gashmius. I know who Rav Moshe Kotlarsky is. He is not a mishichist at all.

Avirdera, the satmar rov said that the chassidus of the baal shem tov is no longer!
You believe him more than the Lubavitcher Rebbe?

Ober chochom – i had no issue with the part about his presence being here in either the statement of moshe Kotlarsky nor the story of the rebbetzin – the same could he said of regular relatives or tzadikim. My issue is that he said that the rebbe should “grant our requests”. It is not implying, it is saying outright, that the rebbe answers prayers and requests and that one should pray to him, as he apparently does. He is known on record as an “anti”, but atzmus ideology isn’t dependent on messianism directly.

Re, the rebbetzin – she was asking the rebbe; not Hashem, to save her. That’s against the rambams ikkarim that we only pray to Hashem. And lest one say that she was davening bzchus the rebbe…she didn’t say “Hashem please save me in the zchus of my hiskashrus to the rebbe”, or even “rebbe please daven for me to Hashem to save me”, but rather she asked the lubavitcher rebbe directly to save her. Moshe Kotlarsky asked the rebbe to grant the shluchim’s requests. That’s the issue at hand, i apologize if i wasn’t clear about it earlier.

Also, the satmar rov followed a long shalsheles of rebbes without breaking off from their mesorah one iota…the lubavitcher rebbe changed things like shifting from ardent anti zionism to non-zionism. You will see an occasional zionist chabadsker as well, nostly those who are unfamiliar with the writings of the rashab on the matter – they may as well have been written by the satmar rov or the mukatcher rov.