Confusion on Lubavitch.

Shlucha22,

No offense, but you do sound crazy for saying that Yaakov avinu lo mes can be applied to other tzadikim. And you probably can’t figure out why 🙂

edited

We have a mesorah that Mashiach will come, so Rabbi Hillel’s opinion in the gemara is not practically relevant any more, for whomever brought that up before.

Next, even if Moshiach could be from those who have already passed away, to claim that Rabbi Schneerson, who lived many generations later, is greater than Daniel who was a real navi and whose prophecies are part of our Tanach, or even that he is greater than Rebbi (the compiler of the Mishna), is an absurd non-starter.

And the “Ain sof” line is an even worse heresy than the atzmus stuff. At least the atzmus stuff you could dreidel away with a docheik that is, of course, not the true explanation, but you could at least claim it is.

But saying that any human being is infinite (ain sof) is simply calling them G-d because the only infinite being is G-d himself. That’s it. This is essentially Christianity. Nebach.

“Lubavitch believes their Rebbe is Hashem.”

Some have implied such. I remember reading on Bais Moshiach magazine many years ago that included something like, “Hashem doesn’t need anyone to take care of him.”

I’ve seen elsewhere the Rebbe was referred to as Boreinu.

“not only has the Rebbe never proclaimed anything similar to this but he was openly against Chassidim who did.”
Any proof for that statement?
That’s the first time I heard anything like that.
His followers have been talking about MaMaSh the Moshiach for decades. I would think that if he made a clear proclamation to stop, it would have been obeyed.

“and so we know that it applies to him as well“

Come again?

Regarding Yaakov Avinu Lo Meis, it doesn’t mean that he didn’t pass away. It says Vayigva, which means according to one meforesh (on Avraham Avinu’s death, as I recall) that he became ill with choli meiayim before he died and then died.

The gemara in Taanis questions on the spot that they embalmed Yaakov and were maspid him, etc. so how could you say that he didn’t die? The gemara then answers that it does NOT say vaYamas because there is a drasha to be made from that omission. But, of course, he did pass away. He is buried in Mesaras haMachpeila. He, himself, told Yosef that he will die “meis”. Etc.

The Zera Shimshon (on ViZos HaBracha, if memory serves) quotes the Zohar that Moshe Rabbeinu lo meis. He says that “meis” means, if I understood correctly, that the neshama ascended to a higher state upon dying, meaning higher than that in which it was previously when alive/in the body.

So, he says, that both by Yaakov and Moshe, their neshama was just as pure, etc. while alive in their body as afterwards when they died and the neshama left their body; Yaakov Avinu, due to all the yissurim that he had in addition to his holiness and purity and Moshe Rabbeinu, of course, being the navi that only he was, etc.

“Hakatan daniel is not from this generation so he cant be moshiach. every genertaion has a mashiach.“

When does the rebbe’s generation end?

It would be interesting to understand how and why the Lubabitcher chassidim bought into the notion about their Rebbe being the Mashiach.

What has he done, in their point of view, to make them believe in their Rebbe so much, to say that he is the Mashiach?

For those that believe that he is still alive (literally or spiritually), what has he done that is so deserving of giving him this status, especially when compared to other previous tzadikim or Prophets?

>> he was openly against Chassidim who did.”
> Any proof for that statement?

a secondary, but contemporaneous, proof – when Lubavitcher Rebbe was already sick, this was the peak moshichism (as many abandoned it after he passed away, not to be like another religion). A local mature Chabad-affiliated Rav said publicly (in front of ~100 people) that he called the secretariat and asked if he can somehow be of use during these difficult times. They responded – please say publicly that this meshugas is not coming from us. And so he did.

השנאה מקלקלת את השןרה.

@RightJew, I listened to that whole clip and you are either purposely defaming Lubavitch or are completely foreign to what he is saying. He literally said that the Shechina rests on the rebbe and you twist his words, and take absolutely one word from his whole speech to epitomize his intention!

Shimon – it takes a paradigm shift for a lubavitcher to understand that there is a possibility of questioning the authenticity of the lubavitcher rebbe’s teachings. It does not happen overnight. Don’t be surprised when they use the lubavitcher rebbe as a source to explain the lubavitcher rebbe.

I’ve noticed that MO folks are the most salty about how successful the Rebbe was. I think it’s grounded in the fact that MO is becoming no longer relevant.

Litvish folks kvetching about ChaBaD are usually bored and should be spending time studying, or ignorant about Chassidus and again should be studying.

Avira, you’re the shvartze calling the other shvartze darkie

Lost – do you think being complacent about avodah zara masquerading as yiddishkeit in klal yisroel is the result of not learning enough? Isn’t the opposite true, that the more one learns, the more one is bothered by the violation of that which he holds most dear, and that one who is not very involved in learning will not be bothered by it enough to react?

The satmar rov was very educated in chasidus. He had some very choice words regarding the lubavitcher rebbe.

Boy did you miss the point

Avirahdara:
Farby – vayehi ohr is not elokus. We’re not pantheistic where we think everything is god cv’s. It is an emanation and the will of Hashem manifested.

Are you saying that they are davar bifnei atzmo??
Please explain

Avira > one of the most esteemed experts in chasidus

I think one problem with Chabad is insularity of their education: many do not appreciate Torah coming from other sources. This may be side effect of preparing bochrim for action early. Someone who is going to build a Chabad House in Iowa may not have time or focus to learn deeper. But this has to come with appreciation what the movement achieved. If you sit and learn all meforshim, while disparaging all other movements, you may not be on a greater maalah. There are a lot of sources saying that mesiras nefesh and involvement in community matters is worthy even if that decreases your limud (starting with Mordechai’s downgrade).

I found bringing up Vilna Gaon (as little as I know or understand him) works perfectly in increasing their awareness of the world :).

> putting a Hebrew date on a check.

probably misspelling, but just warning you – if you put a Hebrew date on a check, it may not be cashed before Moschiach comes. Maybe a maschihist yeshiva will accept this check, to tie it back to the thread.

Which reminds me of a local Rov who told me that he went to a school Principal before the beginning of the year, asking: who is teaching 6th grade this year? P says “Hashem knows and will help”. Rov: then, He will be holding my check for now.

Hml – as difficult as this may be to hear, performing miracles is not a proof of someone’s authenticity or correctness. We find chumash openly telling us so – כִּֽי־יָק֤וּם בְּקִרְבְּךָ֙ נָבִ֔יא א֖וֹ חֹלֵ֣ם חֲל֑וֹם וְנָתַ֥ן אֵלֶ֛יךָ א֖וֹת א֥וֹ מוֹפֵֽת (devorim 13:2). If someone tells me that they or their father in law are the essence of god wrapped in a body and their followers say that their leader runs the world, all the miracles in the world will not convince me otherwise. Miracles can be from the sitra achra as well.

AAQ – i too am troubled by the insularity; they seem to be much more open to the likes of steinsaltz, because he had some ancillary chabad affiliation, than gedolei yisroel.

Mesivta – the gemara says “he’alu mibavel”, not stam that they were mishtamesh with them, which I think means that they “elevated” the names from there. It’s drush but it’s meduyak.

hml – thank you. I do wonder myself why someone within chabad would be choosing to provoke and exacerbate anti lubavitch sentiment. I will join you in hoping for a quick end to it.
Regarding your comment, I too have heard so many first hand reports from friends who have also experienced nisim from the Rebbbe. It does not in any way change the other issues at hand, but it is acknowledged.
It does bother me, and I know Iv’e expressed it to deaf ears repeatedly here, you have to stop calling it hate when people speak out against what they know to be wrong. I am sorry you are on the other end of that but it isn’t personal, and it isn’t hate

When my rosh yeshiva met the Rebbe many years ago he asked “a lot of your chasidim are saying that you are moshiach, are you moshiach?”
The Rebbe slammed on the table and said “chasve shalom”. My RY proceeded to tell me that the reason the Rebbe never visited eretz yisroel was to dispell this notion.
The chasidim who call him moshiach or God are doing it from an emotional standpoint. A lot of them have experienced open miracles and yeshuas from his advice and brachos that have changed their lives. They don’t have anyone else in their lives currently who can work wonders in our day and age, so they grasp to the only person who was able to help them and hope he can save us all. This obviously isn’t the correct ideology, but I hope it explains the fanaticism happening. Not all lubavitchers believe he’s moshiach, but for the ones that do, it’s not the rebbe’s fault, he didn’t promote this belief system.

“ashviger_with_Liquor”:
That story might be true, but it isn’t honest to claim there’s no way that Rabbi Schneerson ever at least entertained the possibility that he would be Mashiach.

Rav Shach, in his efforts to prevent Klal Yisrael from falling for the fallacy of Chabad Messianism, stated that Rabbi Scheerson was trying to convince himself that he is Mashiach.

There’s much out there about this topic of Rabbi Schneerson indicating that he is/will be/could be Mashiach. Tablet magazine has a long article by R’ David Berger from secular year ’14, which has many references to Chabad and other publications, at least some of which (the links) are still active, about this.

Also, if the rebbe wanted to dispel the notion that he was being considered moshiach, it would have been a lot more direct to simply issue a public statement to this effect. Simply not visiting eretz yisroel is a very subtle message, no? If people were claiming that I was moshiach, I would emphatically deny it.

As it happens to be, someone thinking they’re moshiach in and of itself is not disqualifying. It’s the megalomania that generally accompanies such a belief that is. It’s not appropriate to say who, but there was a great rebbeh who believed himself to have the neshoma of moshiach for his generation. He once answered a talmid who asked him why he doesn’t talk about moshiach (since most other rebbes did) with a moshol. He said that by a wedding, everyone’s talking about the choson…. except the choson himself. This is also not hearsay; it’s in an old sefer of zichronos about this rebbe. This rebbe is also a household name in both litvishe and chasidishe families.

Needless to say, no one claimed he was moshiach after his petirah.

When it comes to Meshiach what happens to the gemora of tipach atzmosov, his bones be blown up for those who count the days towards his coming. There is mashel where one takes his son and a friend to Leibzig, the market (the most populous place in Germany). His son asks right away when will we get there? The father gets very upset, yelling, why are you asking me when we just started to travel. After a while the friend asks the same question, so he answers him in another hour. Says the son, why did you scream at me when I asked? The answer is obvious, it was not time to ask but now in the akavte demeshicha, the time when Meshiach can come, is the time to count and ask.