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We as jews must condemn the murder of Shira Banki, a 16 year old girl at last years Gay Parade but at the same time we must condemn this sickening parade which takes place in the holiest city in the world.
Someone tried to make the claim that because of things like the murder at last year’s parade, we should show support at this year’s parade. Not support of violating Issurim CH”V, but support that people with same-sex attraction should be treated with dignity and we should find ways to accept them in the community. My response is that if that was all the parade was about, then it would be fine to go. But Lema’aseh the parade is about supporting and endorsing an Assur lifestyle and Issurim Chamurim and we need to protest that.
There are no circumstances where people who rally under this banner should be treated with dignity or we should find ways to accept them in the community, even if the parade weren’t about supporting and endorsing that lifestyle. If they committed their abhorrent aveiras in private without declaring to the world they commit this heinous sin no one would not treat them without dignity, as no one would be the wiser for their private sins. The fact is they insist on making their sinful ways a matter of the public record in addition to demanding respect for their abominable transgressions.
If someone merely was attracted to this sin without actually engaging in it, he wouldn’t be declaring to the world his attraction to the sin anymore than someone disposed to theft or adultery would march in a thieves or adulterers pride parade.
Joe -“If they committed their abhorrent aveiras in private without declaring to the world they commit this heinous sin no one would not treat them without dignity, as no one would be the wiser for their private sins. The fact is they insist on making their sinful ways a matter of the public record in addition to demanding respect for their abominable transgressions.”
This is true in the US also. In the US, no one cared when they lived in the closet!
Nowadays, not only are they in your face, but they want, and in some States they have, legal marriage!
Health
“This is true in the US also. In the US, no one cared when they lived in the closet!”
This is demonstrably false
for example, I’m sure you are old enough to remember When “Dont ask dont tell” began. At the time it was the liberal position to support “dont ask dont tell”, while conservatives where against it. Conservatives very much cared “when they lived in the closet” and wanted them “outed” and prevented from serving, if a person had those tendencies, just keeping it to themselves was not good enough, and they were discriminated against even if “they lived in the closet”. And this was not that long ago!
It is interesting that less than 20 years later “Dont ask dont tell” became the conservative position, which is kind of where you seem to stand on the issue, ie. keep it to yourself. while liberals opposed it.
Until 2003, 14 states outlawed sodomy when the SCOTUS overturned them in Lawrence v. Texas. Until 1962 sodomy was a felony crime in every U.S. State. Many states prescribed a maximum penalty of capital punishment for the crime.
I certainly support overturning Lawrence v. Texas and reinstating the laws outlawing it.
Joe- “If someone merely was attracted to this sin without actually engaging in it, he wouldn’t be declaring to the world his attraction to the sin anymore than someone disposed to theft or adultery would march in a thieves or adulterers pride parade.”
I strongly dispute that. Today, it’s an identity thing. We all label ourselves and try to associate ourselves and identify ourselves with groups that support our experiences. LGBT is one of those identifiers, so even people who are not in gay relationships have ample reason to identify with the general grouping. In fact, I’d say kal vachomer in the frum community, as even for someone with no intention of sinning, it is much harder to be gay in a community which a) emphasizes the kinds of families that these people can never have and b) is automatically suspicious of them.
For the record, I would never go to this parade, though I know people who did this year specifically as a statement in response to last year’s tragic murder. But I still disagree with you on that bit.
You probably, then, also can see those predisposed to adultery organizing an adulterers pride march, even if they don’t actually engage in that perversion but merely “identify” with it, much as you see those marching in the aforementioned perversion they identify with.
Additionally, the idea they march “merely” to “identify” with the debauchery even without actually committing it, is purely an MO apologetic to attempt to justify the celebration of that depravity. Virtually none of the overwhelming majority of the non-religious participants in the parade see it as merely an identification of those predisposed to that unnatural deed whilst permanently refraining from engaging in it.
Joseph: Whether or not it should have happened or is right, Lema’aseh the world is in a place where people do identify themselves based on sexual attraction. There are people who identify as “gay” solely based on attraction, even in the Frum world. And some of those in the Frum world want to not violate it, yet still identify themselves as someone with the Taava.
Sam, same with adultery, thievery, witchcraft (Wicca), etc. Those with the taaiva…
And why are you equating “Whether or not it should have happened or is right”? It makes no difference to you whether it is right or not?
Because of the murder of Shira last year, the parade was seen very differently this year than other years.
Thank you Joseph
That is a much better example than mine
Sam, that would be a terrible thing even if it weren’t an issur, simply because of the immodesty of it.
How low have we sunk that we can blithely say “that’s just how it is” that people identify themselves according to things we would probably be better off not even discussing.
Joseph, what does MO have to do with it?
IIRC, a bunch of Daati Leumi Rabbonim came out and opposed the parade.
It happens to be that overall the DL aren’t bad on this issue. The same cannot be said about the MO.
Writersoul and Joseph, actually I once read an article by someone (albeit a Catholic) who admitted to being attached to this sin but added that he is celibate.
Both the Gemara (Shabbat 156a) and the Zohar (Parashat Pinchas) recognize pre-dispositions. According to Kabbala it even sometimes happens that a male neshama is reincarnated as a female and vice versa. However, hese are challenges to be channeled or overcome. Having said this, it should also be recalled that financial crimes are also toavot (Devarim 25,13-16) and many who commit them justify them and even brag about them. As these are aveirot ben adam l’chaveiro teshuva is much more difficult, as is well known.
DY and Joseph: In abstract I agree with you. Lema’aseh, though, the facts on the ground are that there are teenagers and young adults who, for whatever societal reasons, view their “identity” as an integral part of who they are and many suffer from extreme depression and other issues because of it. So I think it was more proper and the world was better when such ideas were “in the closet”. Now that they’re not, though, I do think we have to support those people that struggle with this.
By the way, they wouldn’t need to be involved at all. People don’t need to be “out” to know that we support, in abstract, the struggle they go through. Someone doesn’t need to tell me he’s gay for him to know that the Frum community thinks that him becoming not Frum is a bad thing.
Many MO Rabbis have come out against it too, Like Rabbi Steven Pruzansky
However it is a problem in the US protesting such things nowadays because you come off as a “hateful bigot”, One woman even R’L used the torah as a weapon against a christian minster demanding to be stoned on the spot for being one .
Joseph, +1!. Sam2, one thing is privately supporting people’s struggle, but to go to such a parade even for your reason — chaliliah ve’chas ve’sholom! How low have we stooped!
Ubiq -“At the time it was the liberal position to support “dont ask dont tell”, while conservatives where against it. Conservatives very much cared “when they lived in the closet” and wanted them “outed” and prevented from serving, if a person had those tendencies, just keeping it to themselves was not good enough, and they were discriminated against even if “they lived in the closet””
Again with your liberal lies! We wanted them outed in the army! Why do you think that is? Because they have separate baracks for male and female. If they allowed gays in army, it would be bad news.
And btw, what do you mean by discriminated against? IDK any case were s/o was denied a job because of being gay.
I do know cases where s/o was denied a job for keeping Shabbos!
A gay person is like a mamzer, destined to never get married and be alone for the rest of their lives (at least from a romantic perspective) if they want to follow halacha. I’m getting the vibe that people here would feel more sympathy for someone who is a mamzer than for someone who is gay. Being gay is more than just a desire, but in the same way our spouses complete us in emotional and psychological ways, a gay person wants the same sort of emotional and psychological companionship. Obviously, that’s not a heter for anything, but understanding their struggles will allow us to accept them into our communities with greater ease, and will allow us to be a little less judgmental when faced with someone who can’t seem to handle the challenge as most of us haven’t the slightest clue what it means that halacha expects us to be alone for the rest of our lives.
Health
“Again with your liberal lies!”
Which part is a lie?
“We wanted them outed in the army!”
Exactly what I said. In other words when you said “In the US, no one cared when they lived in the closet!” That was false, as you just admitted. We are not discussing whether they should or should not have been banned from the army. i am pointing out that when you said “In the US, no one cared when they lived in the closet!” you were wrong since “”We wanted them outed in the army!” You (and many others) did care even when they lived in the closet.
Do you see how these two statements are contradictory?
Furthermore, As Joseph pointed out many states had laws banning what goes on in the bedroom. You can say these were good laws, fine though that isnt what we are discussing.
Theonly thing I am pointing out to you is that this statement of yours “In the US, no one cared when they lived in the closet!”
Is factually incorrect.
“And btw, what do you mean by discriminated against? IDK any case were s/o was denied a job because of being gay.”
Are you being serious? You JUST said you support discriminating agaisnt someone for being gay, even if he stays in the closet. (again, in direct contradiction to your earlier statement) “We wanted them outed in the army!” Again, we are not discussing whether the reason for said discrimination is good or bad. It could be a great reason. For whatever reason the US army unlike most armies, couldnt function if gay people served. fine, though that isnt the point. The boss who doesnt want workers who have to run out Friday afternoon all winter and take off half of September/October also says he has a good reason.
Ubiq – Your whole post is full of Narishkeit!
Do you know what an exception to the rule is?
As an English teacher, I think you know – Feivel.
The gays were much better in the closet!
The exception is the armed forces.
Simcha613 -“I’m getting the vibe that people here would feel more sympathy for someone who is a mamzer than for someone who is gay.”
There’s nothing wrong with being a Mamzer. I believe most gays became that way. They weren’t born that way!
“Being gay is more than just a desire, but in the same way our spouses complete us in emotional and psychological ways, a gay person wants the same sort of emotional and psychological companionship.”
If what you’re saying has any truth to it – then the best thing to do – is Not to parade around, but to seek psychological help!
simcha613
A very thoughtful post, thank you
Health
You are very funny.
“Your whole post is full of Narishkeit!”
Care to elaborate? Earlier you said “Again with your liberal lies!”
Care to point out a lie?
“Do you know what an exception to the rule is?”
I do
“As an English teacher, I think you know – Feivel.”
I am not an English teacher (Do you really have to be an English teacher to know what an exception to the rule is?) and I am not Feivel
(See here for example http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hospital-horror-stories)
Besides there is more than one exception, as Joseph pointed out up until 2003. Certain acts were illegal in 14 states even if “kept in the closet”
I dont see how you can square this with your original statement
LEts keep things simple.
you said ” In the US, no one cared when they lived in the closet!”
Was this true or false?
Reading the OP, I see that Rabbi of Crawley begins “we as Jews”. Can he say what “we” “must” do? Is he speaking for All Jews? Torah observant Jews? Chareidi Jews? Secular Jews?
It is admirable that he condemns the murder of Shira Banki. It is admirable that he seeks to maintain the kedusha of Yerushalayim. I question the wisdom of having such a parade in the middle of or the religious parts of the city. It is also the parade aspect that bothers me, and if anyone, gay or straight, wants to have a parade celebrating hedonism that includes anything more than clothed people with flags and banners on my street, let alone Yerushalayim, I would be quick to object.
Where I don’t object is the demonstration, the political element of this. In a liberal democracy, if you want to safeguard your own parochial rights, you have to recognize the societal rights of others, no matter how distinct they are from you. Otherwise, you are breaking the very foundations of tolerance that allow you to thrive, in the US, Europe, Israel etc. The gay “community” does suffer discrimination, as do other “communities”, and they have a right to demonstrate about these grievances too.
Hillel Hazaken said “what is hateful to you, don’t do to others” If you would be upset because someone didn’t allow you to demonstrate for something you found important but he found offensive, you would be incensed. Hillel tells you not to be a hypocrite, and he doesn’t qualify the statement with any conditions.
Until and unless the State of Israel determines to be a state ruled by Halacha exclusively, They would seem to be within the law. If you don’t like the law, work to change it. But violate it at your peril.
Simcha, a mamzer may marry a gioret. He can also go to a country that allows slavery and buy a shifcha Kenanit. After she can no longer bear children he can free her so that he can marry her as she will then be a gioret. As for gays, it depends on whether they are strictly same-sex or can go either way.
ubiq, you are correct that with the passage of time the official political conservatism position on moral issues weakens and is dragged leftwards as the political liberals effectively move even further left. So what was previously the position of the left becomes that of the right, while the left moves to the position of what was previously espoused by the far left.
The same phenomena occurs on other issues such as women in the military. It wasn’t that long ago that American conservatives opposed women in the military. As the left successfully pushed further integration the conservatives held the line in opposing women in combat positions. Now I don’t see them even offering nominal opposition to that much.
The moral degradation with time is easily visible to anyone with an eye on the past.
Joseph, the argument could be made that those positions are not a move to the left, but rather a move to a more libertarian understanding of the role of government in citizen’s lives. Libertarian does not mean liberal, but it does mean that the state doesn’t regulate relationships or identity or religion or personal conscience. It stays out of citizens personal lives as much as possible.
That is not a left wing perspective. In fact, most of the most radical right wing elements of the US have a strong libertarian bent.
The moral degradation with time is easily visible to anyone with an eye on the past.
As is readily seen in some of the posts defending pride parades on any level.
Sickening. This is something to proud of?
The top 4 candidates running for US president all support “alternative forms of partnership”
Running against such policies is not a winning issue anymore. And even related issues like in NC are not winning, NC is paying a big price for related laws
Health, DaasYochid, Joseph, et al:
I assume you regularly protest against Jews who are publicly not frum, and believe that we should speak out against accepting them as people and treating them with dignity.
After all, they promote a lifestyle of aveira and toeiva. They are not deserving of basic respect and should be sent to seek psychological help.
I guess someone needs to break the news to 770…
“The moral degradation with time is easily visible to anyone with an eye on the past”
Depends on which morals. Granted regarding Arayos things are worse than in the past. However with other moral issues we are better. For example slavery, prisoners, enemies during war particularly civilians, women, minorities, including jews, mentally ill are all examples that I believe we’ve improved.
And even Arayos, it depends on how you define “past” clearly incest isn’t much of an issue, don’t forget chazal say in Noah’s time they were writing kesubos between men. It comes and goes with time it isn’t a steady downtrend
ZD, wrong thread?
Jfem, huh?
Ubiquitin, and what happened to them?
And once again, I wonder at the reaction of this kind to
Toeivahascribed in the Torah to homosexuality but not toToeivahascribed in the Torah to financial impropriety. If Im not mistaken, Were all supposed to use RYishmaels principles to interpret Torah. This sure looks like a gezeira shava to me. But not, apparently, to those who go well beyond opposing a parade in Yerushalayim. Im sure they are as revulsed by business shenanigans as by seeing LGBTQ parades.Yichusdik, are you telling me that you would not be opposed to a parade supporting financial crimes?
There are definatly protests to support people who have been convicted of financial or other white collar crimes
DaasYochid, what wasn’t clear?
I made clear that I object to a hedonistic display and unclothed people parading through the streets no matter what their inclination. That`s what Pride Parades looked like where I grew up, and it has actually toned down over the years but it is still a problem. I have no problem with a self identified group exercising their right to demonstrate against discrimination, violence, and prejudice, and the LGBTQ community is affected by all three of those. I would expect them and anyone else to defend your right to demonstrate against the very same things targeting you.
In my first post on this thread, I asked the OP about his arrogation of authority to all Jews. i.e.
We as Jews Must Condemn.It doesn
t bother me that the OP is opposed to it. Its his presumption in speaking for everybody, and his inconsistency in doing so that I called out.I
m not calling out to all Jews to condemn anything, Im just wondering at the OPs and others heres preparedness to rail against one but not the other.And for the record, I would of course be opposed to such a parade, but I would not feel compelled to arrogate the responsibility to tell every single Jew that we must condemn it. We would be better off ignoring it, if it (as a parade) didn`t break any laws in our non-halachic society.
ZD, that wasn’t the question.
Jfem, your post and its relevance to the subject. We are not discussing initiating a protest against any people or group, the OP was talking about protesting their pride parade advocating for an average and prideful in their taivos.
Would you not protest against a chillul Shabbos pride parade, or a theft pride parade, or a parade displaying pride for any aveiros or taivos?
I would hope you would. Because I would hope that you’re on the Torah’s side, and Hashem’s side.
Yichusdik, you should object to any display of “pride” in hedonism.
You are telling the OP what he shouldn’t do; why is that any better than he telling you what you should do?
This is going to sound a bit counter-interutive, but sometimes protests against something backfire even if its what it says in the torah.
There have been protests against chilul shabbos and they dont work and frequently backfire. Protests against movie theaters open shabbos cause more people to go. Rav Elyshiv told people to protest a movie theater in Netanya open on Shabbos and its still open to this day.
Is it worth to protest a Movie theater on Shabbos if more people will go because of the protest (against ‘Relgious Coercion”)
Protesting an “Alternative Lifestyle Parade” might cause people not only not to listen to your view, but cause them to insult the torah as well. They might be quiet if you say nothing, but quote Vayikra and then they will curse out the torah as well and insult it. Causing even bigger chilul hashem
The point of the protest isn’t to change their minds or actions, it is to stand up for the kavod of Hashem and His Torah, and to strengthen ourselves.
We see from this thread alone how desperately even frum need chizuk in their hashkafos.
DaasYochid, it’s very relevant. You and others here seem to be primarily objecting to the public nature of the parade (to quote Joseph, “they insist on making their sinful ways a matter of the public record”).
There isn’t a “pride parade”, per se, for anything else. However, there are many, many examples of non-Orthodox Jews promoting halachic transgressions as “a matter of the public record”.
For instance, what if you picked up a Jewish newspaper and saw an advertisement for a conference of the Union for Reform Judaism? Would you be up in arms over that? Or how about a Jewish newspaper that prints advertisements for non-kosher establishments? Suppose the local JCC hosted a talk and book signing by Deborah Feldman, open to the public?
I don’t see you condemning or protesting at lobster restaurants or at church parades.
There isn’t a “pride parade”, per se, for anything else.
Precisely. So the comparison to anything else is faulty.
In any protest, there are 3 groups of people. The people who are there, The people who being protested against , and outsiders who are looking from the outside.
The parade was not seen as being sympathetic from the outside , as it was not seen as an appropriate place for this parade, however the murder of Shira Barki, changed that narrative. Unfortunatly the murderer should have been in jail and was released, he looked charedi and acted like Pinchos. It changed the whole narrative.
Protesting the parade yelling Toeiva, toeiva at the participants might give chizuk to those protesting, however it will be videotaped and posted on youtube and people who really have no opinion will not get a positive vibe from that side. Even if they were opposed to the parade. Many opposed to the parade, felt differntly after the murder of Shira and do feel different when people call other toeiva
Just because the URJ conference, for instance, is called a “conference” and not a “parade” doesn’t negate the fact that it is also, like the parade, in essence a public repudiation of Torah observance.
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