Communism 🐷💰

Because many Marxists believe that Stalinism is a gross misinterpretation of Marx and that he would be horrified by what Stalin implemented.

Stalin is the natural result of Marxism.

There were communist alternatives to Stalin. Some were possibly even worse, like Trotsky, others might have been better. Some claim that modern European socialists are the mild followers of Marx. A minimal test would be if their group was consistently against Soviet style of Marxism. Many of those mild socialists supported USSR in some form.

It is hard to measure. Trotsky was a military leader and a visionary calling for an immediate revolution worldwide. Stalin was a behind the scenes operator who consolidated his power. European intellectuals were fascinated even by Stalin’s version, kal vehomer they might have bought the more inspiring version.
Trotsky was not more merciful, he was responsible for enough killings. When Chometz Chaim was running away, it was still pre Stalin, I think

Dear Yserbius,

Stalin has nothing in common with Marx. Absolutely zero. Marx and Abraham Lincoln can be compared to each other more than Stalin to either one of them. Stalin wasn’t communism at all. Murder doesn’t require an ism.

Much like zionism, communism sought to right perceived wrongs. Zionism aimed on the surface to stop antisemitism, but it was really after making a new Jew in the form of nordic land worship and european nationalism – the same philosophy which spawned Nazism, as it were.

Communism seeks to right the wrong of the oppressed majority of working families, to wrest control from the elite minority who live in comfort.

Until it is they who live in comfort with the masses in tribute to them.

No established society would accept communism by choice. It needs to be foisted on them. Marx was in favor of achieving that at least partially through the cruelty of withholding charity. He said only if the workers are desperate will they accept change. Feminism further sought to break women of the bonds of motherhood and matrimony, even against their own will. They need to be shown the light even if they oppose it, and only then will they be “free”.

Avira, Zionism is more comparable to left-of-center socialists rather than commies. In Jewish context in Europe, Zionists were fighting Bundists on whether to build socialist policies in Europe w/ Yiddish or in EY with Hebrew. Early Israel had actual communists, mapam, so you can separate between them.

“Much like zionism, communism sought to right perceived wrongs.”

There are disagreements on whether Marx saw a moral element in his discussion of capitalism and communism or whether he saw it as beyond justice and morality. Please provide evidence for your reading.

“Stalin simply entorced communism by force, as every creator of every communist state has done. That’s what happened in china, vietnam, north korea, cuba, and elsewhere.”

These states never reached communist utopia and were still in the process of the vanguard of the proletariat. This intermediate state was unfortunately abused by authoritarians.

“No established society would accept communism by choice. It needs to be foisted on them.”

Revolutionary Catalonia anyone?

“Marx was in favor of achieving that at least partially through the cruelty of withholding charity.”

Source?

“Feminism further sought to break women of the bonds of motherhood and matrimony, even against their own will.”

This is more in line with second-wave feminism but even that did not force woman to abandon motherhood. First wave feminism just sought to gain equal rights for woman (suffrage, inheritance laws etc.)

Marxist, great to see a real marxist on this board. Viva diversity! As relevant to this board, one of your namesake’s early writings (that is indicative of where he comes from) is a polemic with some German anti-semite pastor who wanted to assimilate Jews. Marx turns the question around and shows that all the world evil comes from Jews who initiated trade and capital accumulation, so he suggests saving the world _FROM_ those evil Jews. Sounds like an ominous starting impulse both for Soviet and Nazi anti-semitism. You probably know more on the matter and can enlighten us on this.

Avot d’Rabbi Natan supports this position: Hillel, I think, on the road – asks some farmers how much is their wheat. They say two dinars a bundle. He goes further, meets another group – they answer 3 dinars a bundle. Hillel tells them that he saw another group for 2. They say – we travelled from far away and worked hard, so we deserve 3 and quote “the reward according to the effort”. He tells them – (communist) fools! Meaning that reward goes by the effort in Torah learning, but not in business! In business, you charge according to market price that signals to you that maybe you should not shlep wheat to another country and lose money! Those were early commies who demanded to be paid according to planned economy, whether their work was efficient or not.

Marx had some admirable ideas. He was living in a time where the rich were exploiting the poor working class in a manner far worse than nearly any other time in history. So he envisioned an ideal world where people working to produce food and necessities didn’t have to be poor and classes in general could be fully eliminated. Unfortunately there were many consequences, both forseen and unforseen. Marx and Engels were products of the 19th century Enlightenment movement which (I shouldn’t have to tell you) absolutely hated Yiddishekeit (and culture and religion and ethnicities) with a passion. Marx wanted not only to abolish Torah and Avodah, but also the whole concept of the Bnei Yisroel, taking things even further than Haskalah wanted. It’s no wonder the early Tzionim loved him so much. The unforseen consequences is that “Das Kapital” and “The Communist Manifesto” were far too ideal and assumed the absolute best in people, which allowed evil doers to continuously take advantage of Communism and steer it towards being one of the most terrible forms of government imaginable.

There are really no communists rests. The Russians are now put unadulterated fascists, and the Chinese are pretty much the same (private companies, operating in service to the state, just like Hitler and Mussolini). People like Sanders are more like 1930s reinactors pretending to be Stalinists (while basing their lifestyle on the wealth generated by free markets).

Communism would work if not for corruption.