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Avrum & Iacisrmma – thanks for answering the question. I never knew about this issue before, and it sounds like something that affects all men who are makpid on jackets, so I was wondering what most people do. Thanks for answering.
I dont understand the Oval office comparison.
IT works for children, but for grownups it falls flat.
1) If I went to the oval office I wouldnt wear a tallis and teffilin
2) IF I was there 3 times daily for as long as I can remember and for as long as I have left on this planet.
You can bet I wouldnt wear a jacket
3) In a formal setting (assuming it wasnt 3 times daily) I would wear a tie and suit not a jacket
1) Nowadays we don’t wear them all day, but if you were davening shachris in the Oval Office then I assume you wpuld.
2) The culture has changed nowadays, but there are still many people who wear suits and ties to work every day, why should davening be less important than that?
3) So you should preferably wear a tie and suit to davening. But since this isn’t practical, there is a lesser darga of at least wearing a jacket.
2) Is the best point SO i will start with that one.
first of all it doesnt really respond to my point. All I was saying is that the oval office comparison is a childish one. You point out that there are (other times) that people do wear suits and ties daily which while true isnt my point. If Joseph said you should wear a jacket since at a buisness metting you woudl wear one, my point 2 would fall away, but that isnt the arguemnt he made. and it wasnt what I replied to
A quick google image search yields many results with those in the oval office on a regular basis sans jacket
As to your actual point, the point oen of convention it would be strange for a janitor to show up at work in a suit and tie. The convention in many areas is not to wear a jacket for shacharis this isnt disrespctful if it is the convention
1) I doubt it, but at any rate Joseph made the argument “nowadays” perhaps it made sense centuries ago.
3) Why isnt it practical? The same way we have davening hats and jackets (and some have gartels) we can easily have ties. To make matters worse, when I was in yeshiva a guy wore a tie and the mashgiach told him to stop since that wasnt “the Yeshiva’s tzura”
With regard to wearing a tie, I once asked one of my Rebbeim if I were to dress for davening the way I would dress in front of a king or president, logic would dictate that I should wear a suit and tie and then there would be no difference between davening and Shabbos. He suggested that it meant if you were standing in front of a king that you see multiple times a day like if you were working for him. In this day and age, it would mean no jacket and tie but he still suggested to wear a jacket so that something special is worn specifically for davening.
With regard to the hat and JFK, it may have been true at the time that hats were still respectable and he was lowering the bar for when to dress respectfully but that’s certainly not true anymore. Now a hat is simply not respectable. Even if a real king would exist, a vast majority of people would not wear hats as it’s no longer respectable and might even look a bit ridiculous. JFK may have started it but the transformation is now complete. Styles and respectability change. What was respectable in Rashis time in place was not the same as the Shulchan Aruch which wasn’t the same as the GRA which isn’t the same for us. The stylistic reality is, is that hats are out.
With regard to one hand out of the sleeve, I think Rav Soloveichik held that way. At one point later in life he stopped wearing a jacket for Shacharis. He explained because he just inherited R’ Chaim’s tefilin which were quite large and couldn’t fit under his jacket sleeve. He felt it was more respectable to not wear a jacket than to wear one abnormally with one hand out of the sleeve.
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