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It’s very wrong. One wouldn’t come to a formal invitation to visit the Oval Office or Buckingham Palace without a jacket. All the more so, nor should one do so when coming to shul to speak to the Ribono Shel Olam.
This phenomenon of seeing some people brought up in good frum families in shul for Shachris without a jacket is an unfortunate thing that fairly recently became more common than ever before. (Though, B”H, still isn’t common overall.)
I dont understand the Oval office comparison.
IT works for children, but for grownups it falls flat.
1) If I went to the oval office I wouldnt wear a tallis and teffilin
2) IF I was there 3 times daily for as long as I can remember and for as long as I have left on this planet.
You can bet I wouldnt wear a jacket
3) In a formal setting (assuming it wasnt 3 times daily) I would wear a tie and suit not a jacket
If you believe wearing a jacket is appropriate when standing in front of the Ribbono shel olam, then wear it. But not because of what you would wear in the oval office
Do shuls have a kippa bin at the front entrance for people walking in without one?
What if they had a jacket closet with jackets of diff sizes. Maybe even donated to the shul and get dry cleaned once every month or so, also a donated service.
Only rule is to remember to take it off after davening and return it to the shul closet.
May be an issue if the shul doesn’t have AC and/or the person isn’t wearing long sleeves. Or for anyone with allergies
If I were invited to the White House today, I would wear denim.
LB,
Most of the people who don’t wear jackets do so because they don’t want to, not because they don’t have a jacket.
Actually HE’S RIGHT!!!!
A person, no matter how old, not matter how mature, no matter how smart, should picture himself standing before the king of all presidents and kings and prime ministers… LIKE IT SAYS IN THE FIRST SIMAN IN SHUCHAN ARUCH!!! And one SHOULD draw a comparison… and that is one way to acquire Yiras Shomayim.
Maybe they would want to if it was more convenient to do so.
Also it could establish wearing jackets as more of a policy thing or norm at that particular shul. It’s what you do when you daven.
Who knows why they don’t want to do so?
If someone doesn’t wear a jacket to work, and he may only have a few nice jackets, then putting it to daily use may be a deterrent.
And plus they may in turn end up liking wearing a jacket that they eventually purchase or designate one of their jackets for davening and keep it in their car so that they have it on hand every day.
I thought that Hashem was our Father? I would think that my father would want me to be comfortable. Do you always wear a jacket when you speak to your father?
What’s the difference between entering a shul or walking on the street? We’re always in front of Hashem. According to your logic we should always wear a jacket
I thought that Hashem was our Father
“Avinu Malkeinu…”
“Avinu” comes before “Malkeinu”.
Styles vary considerably based on subculture and region. If you would go on a job interview without a jacket and tie, or go to meet President Trump dressed that way – then its probably okay to go to shul without a jacket and tie. Note that many hareidim don’t wear a tie – which in other circles is a sign of disrespect. In the past men often wore a fedora on Shabbos, even though it was a “working week” hat, at least among the better dressed upper crust people. And in many countries, the rabbanim didn’t wear a jacket (particularly in non-European areas). Another factor is local custom of wearing a tallis (since a tallis, which originally was worn as outwear similar to a jacket, makes what is underneath less significant).
The only halacha is one should wear your best clothes to shul on Shabbos and Yuntuf, and that is not an absolute standard.
“”Avinu” comes before “Malkeinu”.”
And therefore? He’s still Malkeinu even if the Avinu comes first. Actually, that just goes to prove that Hashem can be both Avinu and Malkeinu at the same time and they are not contradictions. So by relating to Him as a Melech, you are not negating the fact that He is also our Father.
kfb: Hashem is also in the bathroom and yet there is a reason why we don’t daven in bathrooms.
Is the street really the same as a shul?
The shul is a designated place. It’s home to sacred texts, sacred words, the Torah scrolls, and people are there to speak to Hashem together and individually.
Many people have all sorts of jobs and some of them a jacket is not worn.
Those same people go to Scachris and then rush to their jobs, they do not have time to change.
Likely if there was a jacket rule some would not go, you need to encourage people to go, not discourage them
LU,
Sounds like you’re agreeing with me. Thanks for the support.
Does it really?
I do not wear a jacket, or a tie, or a suit. In fact, I do not even own a jacket, nor any ties or suits. I guess, in this respect, I am the exact opposite of CTLawyer.
I have worn a tie once in the past 9 1/2 years (closer to 10), and it wasn’t to shule. In fact, it had nothing whatsoever to do with anything relating to Yiddishkeit.
Rav Mordechai Eliahu says that one may daven without a jacket if one would walk in the street without it(see Aruch Hashulchan, OC 91:6-7).
Joseph,
Sincere question: Which do you think is preferable – to wear a nice shirt and pants to shul with no jacket, or more regular clothes with a windbreaker thrown on as a jacket?
Who in the world wears a jacket for shachris? then you hang it over one shoulder? or button it without putting your left arm through? Seems retarded.
Me. I put my arm through the sleeve.
What did you do when you were in yeshiva?
How is a windbreaker bakovedik?
Is there something inherently bakovedik in having an extra layer of clothing over your shirt?
If one were invited to Buckingham Palace, I think a windbreaker would be worse than no jacket at all
Ubiquitin, see ‘??”? ??’ ?”? ?”? ? that how one stands in front of important people is indeed how one should daven.
Is there something inherently bakovedik in having an extra layer of clothing over your shirt?
Yes
DY
Of course one shoudl dress with some degree of respect (I’m sorr yif I implied otherwise)
My point was using the emotional argument of “One wouldn’t come to a formal invitation to visit the Oval Office”
Is childish and wrong. since the reality is if I went to the oval office 3 times daily I would most definitely not wear a jacket. (That doesnt mean I would necessarily wear pajamas or even shorts)
Furthermore, the mechaber you cite does not say one should dress as if in front of a king (unless I am misunderstanding), if he did it would mean no hat today and suits and ties not just a jacket.
Joseph,
I don’t see a good reason that it should be that binary choice you presented.
Understood. I set the binary choice up because I wanted to better understand your reasoning for the necessity of a jacket. Your OP essentially made a “nice clothes” argument, which others were responding to exclusively; but I figured there was more to the jacket than just nice or formality.
DaasYochid,
Me. I put my arm through the sleeve.
The one and only time I did that, when I took the jacket off to remove my tefillin, I noticed that the knot and box had separated quite a bit (not good). How do you prevent that from happening?
Me. I put my arm through the sleeve.
What did you do when you were in yeshiva?
I put it on one shoulder, and looked like a retard
Avram in MD, I hold my hand around the bayis as I’m taking off my jacket. Also, a trick a batim macher once told me is to always close the case and wrap the shel yad in a way that the kesher presses against the bayis.
Popa, when everyone does the same thing, it doesn’t look r
d.I am offended by your avoidance of the word retard.
Wow, I never knew that putting on Tefillin while wearing a jacket is that complicated. I’m getting so educated in the CR.
So here’s my question: What do most people who wear jackets do?
A) what DY does
B) what PBA used to do when he wore a jacket
C) other_________
Reuven: “LU, Sounds like you’re agreeing with me. Thanks for the support.
Moderator: “Does it really?”
Reuven, I’m not sure if I was agreeing or disagreeing with you. Can you clarify what your point was, so I can tell you?
About that word:
In my humble opinion, it’s offensive to throw that around like it’s humorous and doesn’t promote a stigma.
It may not have negative consequences for some people’s lives but it comes at the expense of others.
There are other words in the dictionary that can give you a more accurate and less derogatory affect.
If you want, then I can list some, which then would be potentially edited out. I trust that you have the creativity to come up with a selection on your own.
DY = DaasYochid
When you drop that word, it offends people like me. You don’t know my story. Maybe I have a deep personal connection to that word that you don’t know about.
That is possible. Overall though, how does it affect general society who doesn’t know your story?
Was PBA really honoring the meaning and people of the word when he said:
“Who in the world wears a jacket for shachris? then you hang it over one shoulder? or button it without putting your left arm through? Seems retarded.”
LB: You’re coming in middle of a story… There’s a history to this place, actually a long, long history. If you think the few topics and convos that go on here now are anything… way back then… this place was ROCKING (in all directions). We had many, many participants. And lots of conversations (did I say conversations?!? A battleground is putting it midly). And a lot of phrases… this was one. Do CR research – about three-four years back..
Alrighty then
What about people who wear jackets without ties? In Israel this is common in some sectors and is becoming common in wider circles around the world. BTW, according to some studies ties can cause health problems because of compression of the venous return. In the UK they were banned from hospitals because they spread bacteria.
Would you go to the Oval Office or Buckingham Palace wearing a jacket with one arm out of the sleeve?
How is it kavodik to wear a “davening jacket,” which is either a cheap jacket (that looks cheap) or a jacket from an old suit whose pants wore out?
I would hate to wear a tie. I’m glad I’m not a boy. I can’t even handle watches.
Takamamash…………….
Since you mentioned my name
I arrive in the synagogue dressed in a suit if it is a work day. I hang my suit jacket in the cloak room and put on my Talis before entering the minyan room. I find I am not comfortable with the one arm through a sleeve and the other hanging loose, jacket buttoned at the waist method. I have the talis on until I leave the minyan room and put my suit jacket back on in the cloak room.
I find nothing disrespectful in being garbed for prayer in a full sized talis.
On non-work non-Shabbos or Yuntif days, I may not be dressed in a suit. If I’m wearing a zip up jacket it also will be hung in the cloak room.
On Shabbos and Yuntif I wear my suit jacket under the talis with both arms through their respective sleeve.
BTW>>both my father and grandfather had the same method regarding their suit jackets. Why mistreat a quality garment by wearing it in a manner for which it was not made?
My point was using the emotional argument of “One wouldn’t come to a formal invitation to visit the Oval Office”
Is childish and wrong. since the reality is if I went to the oval office 3 times daily I would most definitely not wear a jacket. (That doesnt mean I would necessarily wear pajamas or even shorts)
Furthermore, the mechaber you cite does not say one should dress as if in front of a king (unless I am misunderstanding), if he did it would mean no hat today and suits and ties not just a jacket.
Again, the halachah is that one dresses as one would in front of important people. What is wrong with using the Oval Office as an example?
Joseph
Your 2 paragraphs disagree with each other.
If I had a once in a lifetime meeting I would wear a suit and tie. No hat, no gartel, no tallies and no tefilin.
(If the president said I’d like you to wear tefilin I wouldn’t wear half a jacket)
Your second paragraph makes sense. We dress by convention. In the yeshiva community this is no tie (generally) a jacket and hat (often brim up).
Among those where this isn’t the standard there’s no reason to dress that way
Dy
Because it isn’t true.
Unless you are arguing for a suit and tie.
And if I went to the oval office in tefilin I wouldn’t wear half a jacket.
“You should dress for the RBS”O three times a day the same way you’d dress for the RBS”O if you were meeting Him for a once-in-a-lifetime one-on-one meeting He called you to (during your lifetime), where you’d be having a back and forth conversation with Him on how you should teach Torah to Klal Yisroel.”
got it Shkoyach! I love when we agree.
so i’ll leave my jacket at home
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