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Can someone please explain to me why there is such a problem with someone who wears a non black kipa(eg. Kipa srugah) or a colored shirt. I have see great shiduchim turned down for such non important issues like these. Is someone who wears a srugah or colored shirt any less frum than one who does?
No.
there is no difference. that is just my humble opinion,
A person from a white shirt family might not be compatible with a colored shirt individual. They are not being condescending, rather they are being realistic and understanding they are on different yiddishkeit levels. It always strikes me that its only the colored shirt people who complain about this. Do they have a guilty conscience and feel inferior?
And what about a cowboy hat, brown boots, and high trousers? I mean, does the boots make him less Frum?
Let me ask you the question. Why is he wearing the colored shirt and the colored nitted Yarmulka?
Now lets go further. If a guy wears a nice knitted winter hat, which covers his whole head (much bigger segulah for yiras Shomayim), would you want him for your daughter? Why not, is he less Frum? Does acceptance of other peoples mishugassin and ideals only work one way??
You know as well as I do, that a long jacket is a statement; a big peace symbol on the front or back of my shirt is a statement; a Knicks (or other sports team) Yarmulka is a statement; a colorfully knitted Yarmulkah is a statement; a colored shirt is a statement. Just as you have a right to state your ideals etc through your cloths, so too, do I have a right to reject you fro those ideals.
I personally don’t make a big thing out of this issue. Some days I’ll wear a seruga, some days velvet, some days- whatever that other material is.
I do NOT agree with a previous comment suggesting that a kipa seruga means you are less frum. There are kipa seruga people who are much MORE sincere in their frumkeit, AND much bigger learners, than some who will only wear black velvet.
But, nevertheless… some people DO feel that it identifies you with a certain “group” – yeshivish, Zionistic, chassidish, “modern orthodox”, or whatever, and to SOME degree this is true.
Of course there are also some groups that mess up some of this stereotyping.
L’mashal… Many chassidim (at least in Eretz Yisrael) wear a type of white kippa seruga and they are clearly NOT part of the modern OR Zionistic chevra.
ALSO, in Eretz Yisrael, mostly in the so-called “settlements” of Yehuda and Shomron, they mostly wear (large) kipot serugot and they are clearly NOT the “modern orthodox” or “conservatives” that are generally associated with wearing the (smaller) kipot serugot.
Bottom line is there is nothing inherently wrong with a non-black yarmulka or a non-white shirt, but you do have to realize that there are associations that go along with it, so you have to decide if you DO want to make that association, or if you care if others do.
When I wear a kipah sruga, it is a statement. The statement is very simple. “I reject your shtick.” This post probably won’t go up, because any time I mention frum shtick my posts get deleted.
Is someone who wears a srugah or colored shirt any less frum than one who does?
NO!, But others would say yes…
This reminds me of a different, more puzzling, question: What did the colonists have against wearing a red coat?
When I wear a knitted yarmulke you bet I am making a statement. I am stating that I reject your shtick. Live with it.
Its not the shirt or the kippah, Its what it resembles.
its kinda like the chasidim who wear knickers and knee sox.
they wont mix with the chasidim who wear regular pants.
personally, its the person who is most important. niot his clothes….providing he/she is wearing something normal.
thats actually funny 😛
it really IS shtick. i mean, is it really fair to judge people based on teh chitzoniyus? as long as they are dressed reasonably (befitting a tzelem elokim, in accordance with gadlus ha’adam and situation. IE jeans at work, or nice conservative shirt and non jeans teh rest of teh time) then i see no problem.
proof that its all shtick…ask yourself this question.
if you walked onto a bus and saw two groups of bochurim, one with white shirts, black hats, and jackets, and another with coloured shirts, and the guys over teh course of the trip you heard nivul peh from both groups. which would shock you more? now not all of you will give teh answer i expect, and to those people i say “shkoyach.” to teh rest of you, i hope you get the point.
HaLeiVi
A bit too harsh the redcoats were the enemy
Popa says it is all about context.
If you are dating a guy from Lakewood, your principal question is whether you want to date a guy from lakewood- not the fact that he wears white shirts. Of course he wears white shirts, he is from lakewood.
If you are dating a guy from YU, your question is whether you want a guy from YU.
I really don’t see how the shirt color issue could ever come up. You aren’t going to find a guy in lakewood wearing colored shirts, and you shouldn’t fool yourself into thinking that a guy from YU is not YU because he wears white shirts.
There is no difference between one who wears colored shirts and white shirts but it may give a different impression. When I was in high school and I wore colored shirts and I had friends in Telshe and other very frum places who wore only white shirts yet we were equally frum. The yarmulke on the other hand is not the same. One who wears a non velvet yarmulke normally has a different hashkafah than one who wears velvet ones only.
When did some people abandon their hats? I’ll bet everyone here’s great grandfathers all regularly wore hats. Even those here that don’t own or wear one. Why was it discarded. What was the statement? I want to look more like the goyim (since they too once wore them but discarded them)?
Hats are a whole other story.
If a person wears a black velvet kippah, has a TV and wears a light blue shirt…what does that make him?
Canine,
Certain things changed very slowly; each place at its own pace. Some things are to be taken with their context. If you moved to America before the war, you don’t want to stand out, being the only one in your hemisphere with a beard and Reckel. Many people today who wear Hoizen Zokken have/had a father who wore a down hat with no beard. Take a look at pictures of the 50s in America.
I don’t think it’s appropriate to make a sweeping statement like that when most people are simply dressing in the same manner with which they were brought up. When someone changes his dressing style, that is where you can see the group he is trying to identify with.
If someone comes from a yeshivish background and wears a colored shirt, he’s making a statement. If it’s accepted in your circles than there’s no problem with it. ( i happen to think pink shirts look nice on certain people)
Haleivi, I said its not necessarily the current persons fault. Like you said, often it was their father or grandfather etc. that threw out the hat.
How one dresses resembles which group of people he would like to be part of. Different groups/communities have different dress codes. Some people feel comfortable wearing a colored shirt on ???, while others look down on it. Does it make them more/less frum? No. But that just shows what group they are part of.
^Ad Dilo Yada^
Canine: when did the accepted way that American Yidden wore their hats change? Here is a list of the changes made by the yeshivishe olam. (I’m not going to speak about chassidim because they simply switched back to the European styles.)
1-When did the olam stop wearing straw hats in the summer. A number of older people have told me that it used to be that “goyim wore straw from memorial day to labor day, yidden went from shavuos to rosh hashana”
2-When did the brims get so wide?
3-When did the olam stop wearing feathers?
4-When did the olam stop wearing gray or navy blue hats?
PS I just bought a new hat today. It’s the first “normal yeshivish black hat” I’ve bought since 9th grade. The last one lasted me through high school after which I barely ever wore it.
ItcheSrulik
Resident College “Shaigetz”
chassidim because they simply switched back to the European styles.
Chasidim never changed away from how they did it in Europe, so you’re incorrect about them “switched back”.
As far as the Yeshivish, I don’t see the comparison between changing brim size or feathers to dropping a hat altogether.
Canine,
Not necessarily did someone decide to leave the fold and follow the gentiles. Certain changes happen slowly enough until it becomes the norm. If not for that, I wouldn’t be wearing a buttoned shirt. There were German Jews who were very Frum and they dressed German. Until there was a large concentration of Chassidishe Yidden, people wore what was normal to wear.
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