- This topic has 234 replies, 83 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
“Years ago, when my husband was there, guys wore color shirts at Mirrer. They’d probably be kicked out now.”
No the wont. They would probably would point out the leaky faucet and stuffed toilet. (thats a joke).
Wearing white shirts is the single most important principle of religious Judaism. One might think that wearing a black fedora is more important, but that’s not the case. What is most important in that area is to make sure to wear an outdated form of headgear. Fedora, shtreimel, or any such item will do. As far as white shirts, it is of such importance that a child can be disallowed from a Yeshiva for not adhering to it. Rash”i and the Vilna Gaon, Ramba”m, and all the Tannaim and Amoraim etc… OBVIOUSLY wore white shirts only! We must adhere to these two most important halachos at all times!
“What is most important in that area is to make sure to wear an outdated form of headgear. Fedora, shtreimel, or any such item will do.”
Exactly. In the Torah it’s called ?????????? ?? ????. The more different from the goyim, the better. And whoever makes fun of this or any mitzva, is ???? ??. I’m afraid this CR is becoming a ???? ????.
Imho, a white shirt is the uniform that the Yeshivos happened to adopt. A uniform is important for unity and conformity, not wearing the uniform is symbolic that you don’t hold of the institution that you supposedly belong to, but this is only applicable where this is the “accepted” uniform. In most yeshivos, white is the uniform even though it’s not inherently significant, and wearing colored shirts would tell us a lot about that talmid and his values. In places where it’s not the uniform (like YU), then wearing white is much less meaningful, and not wearing white is not a statement at all.
The Fedora is a must have fashion accessory this season. “Celebrities” such as Beyonce have been wearing them.
Msseeker, I hope you were being facetious. If you weren’t, I refer you to the Shulchan Aruch I quoted above (Orach Chayim 53:18).
“yay mp. thats so warm and fuzzy.”
Actually, toi, some of them are. They’re great in the winter.
In places where it’s not the uniform (like YU), then wearing white is much less meaningful, and not wearing white is not a statement at all.
In fact, wearing white shirts in YU probably means you are weird.
PBA: From what I know, there are a decent number of YU students who only wear white shirts.
msseeker:
????????? ?? ????. Really? So in the early part of the 20th century when most people in Western Culture wore Fedoras every day, then ALL Jews were acting “BeChukos Hagoyim”. And the Roshei Yeshiva who wear “up hats” are wearing the hats worn by aristocrats in early 20th century. I guess the old Roshei Yeshiva were guilty as well. How far back do you want to take this? The Rebbe’s wore shtreimel’s because that was the noble dress in Poland. If you looked at a Polish Noble on a hunt in the 1830’s, he was dressed as a Rebbe. Rashi wore French clothing. Rambam wore Egyptian. There is NO “Jewish” dress. This whole “white shirt, black hat” business is a NEW phenomenon. I’m sure you mean well by saying that, but it’s a silly argument.
I recently wrote a graduate paper on shifting paradigms in corporate American culture. One issue is the changing “rules” for how to dress in the workplace. Interestingly, there are conflicting views on how one’s clothing affects their work and production.
I remember when i was unfortunately sitting shiva for my late father in Bayit vegan many years ago some people came in who i did not know. One was wearing a blue shirt and university scarf another a yellow shirt etc etc Somebody who knew them pointed them out to me…this one knows shas this one learns shas mishnayos every year etc etc does it really matter what shirt they wear. yet when i visit lakewood to see my son i wear white shirts. why? because i dont want to embarrass him! what a funny world we live in.
why are my posts getting modded again!?!?!?!?!
Toi
Because they promote Sinas Chinam
Perhaps the allure of the white shirt is that, for some, it allows one to feel like a tzadik without having to act like a tzadik.
Hi Michael C.
That is 100% correct in my case. The way I dress does affect me a lot in attitude and behavior.
BTGuy: Anecdotal evidence isn’t proof. If you feel more Yiras Shamayim when wearing white shirts, then of course you should wear white shirts. But that doesn’t mean that everyone feels the same way. I feel like much more of a Ben Torah when I wear a colored shirt, personally.
Perhaps it ties into the idea of the way the son or daughter of the King of all kings should dress, as Bnei Melech Malchei Hamelachim, we must represent that in the way that we look. Similarly to white shirts is the idea of jean/denim. We dress as we would before a king – always, and we would want to look clean and pure before Him… just an idea..
With a poster called “lovinghalacha” it comes time to bring Orach Chaim 53:18 back on the table.
From it we can see that we did not fix how those who lead davening should dress. You can dress in either white or colored clothing. However, other religions did fix a requirement that only white be worn. Hence, if someone is asked to lead services and refuses because he has colored clothes on, he creates a cloud of suspicion on himself for that prayer only.
Our over 2000 year Mesorah is not to be particular about what color a would be leader of services dresses in.
i don’t get what all the hype is about. whats wrong if a man/guy/gentleman/male/dude decides to wear a non white shirt? is it (lehavdil) like a girl dressed in something other than funeral attire? are people really judging our sisters and brothers based on EXTERNAL factors? my father decided to go all ‘proper’ when i got to the end of seminary. knitted yarmulke became velvet. navy pinstripe suit became nearly plain black. the hat that needed to be replaced got a really wide brim. and the blue shirts he used to wear stayed in the closet. UNTIL he told me he thought it would get me a better shidduch. and you know what i told him? dress how he used to because the man i marry isnt that shallow. my point is although i agree a ‘uniform’ like police, fire, ems, nurses, doctors, engeneers, etc define who they are to the outside world, does donning a uniform make you that person? does wearing a white shirt make you more frum then the person who wears a non white shirt? clothes can denote a persons place but to what degree?
*and whats gonna happen when a boy who used to wear a white shirt suddenly goes to work and decides to wear (GASP) a light blue shirt? did he suddenly become not frum?* (the comment in the ** is sarcastic)
can some one PLEASE explain to me the importance of bashing groups of frumme yidden based on clothes that can be changed in about 30 seconds or less?
i apologize for the rant.
Sam2 and Josh31 –
Please. Let’s be honest, we all know that the halacha found in OC 53:18 is not relevant to this discussion. It has as much relevance as do white shoelaces, v’doik.
You want a makor? Yoreh Deah 178:1 in the beginning of the Rema. ??? ??? ????? ??? ????????. Personally I don’t think that one needs to wear a white shirt and black pants to satisfy this inyan, but the ones who say you should aren’t coming from nowhere.
I brought OC 53:18 to show that historically we have not had a uniform dress code.
I can bring other sources to show that we have adopted local dress customs.
The recent Yeshivish dress code has to be considered an innovation. Lakewood in the 1950’s did not Bochurim wearing Black Hats.
I am not against all innovation, but the overall pace of innovation from the right has been quite rapid.
Yitay: I am familiar with that Rama. See the Nos’ei Keilim who discuss at length whether we hold like that. And assuming we do (there’s no reason not to, we very rarely Pasken against the Rama) nowhere does it say that you have to do that by wearing white. In fact, the Chassidish garments probably fall under that Rama.
Why is that Halacha in OC not relevant? I think it’s very relevant. The point of that Halacha is Davka to go against the Svara that many people use. Even though white clothes are more Mechubad, it is not something that our Mesorah is Makpid on. Please, tell me what else the SH”A means there.
yitayningwut – We don’t all know that. The point of oc53:18 is that caring about the color of one’s clothes or the type of one’s footwear in public can be an indicative sign of apikorsus. The Mesorah would seem to be clear that worrying about how others perceive your clothing is not a Torah value EVEN if you misguidedly think that it help your Yiras Shomayim (not that if it helps your yiras shomayim you should necessarily stop – m’toch shelo lishma ba lishma but you should know that the source is not holy). As to the Hevdel, a Yarmulkah is as big a hevdel as you could make – much bigger than a white shirt.
Sam2 –
The Rema does not mean we should wear black, white, or purple. He means we should be muvdal. However the community decides. If the Jews are all wearing green glasses then the Rema would say it is proper to wear green glasses. And you don’t have to hold of the Rema. I am only saying that they aren’t coming from nothing.
Josh31 –
And so what if it’s an innovation? They have a basis for such an innovation, the Rema. And if you ask why they need to do more then previous generations they will simply say that previous generations weren’t as integrated and accepted by the general society and so they didn’t need as many reminders to differentiate between us and them, mah she’ein kein nowadays.
frumnotyeshivish –
You are saying a vort where there isn’t one. Rashi says that if he says this we are worried because ?????? ????? ?”? ??????? ???. Pashut p’shat is that this is their minhag, so we are concerned he may be one of them. You don’t see anywhere that to be makpid on a certain kind of dress is antithetical to Torah. That is a falsification of Torah. It may not be required, but it is not antithetical.
Yitay: I disagree. The Shulchan Aruch is Davka saying that. He’s not basing his P’sak on a historical group. He is saying that, even though white clothes are nicer, it is the Derech of Apikorsim to be Makpid that a Ba’al Tefillah be specifically wearing white clothes. To require a mode of dress that is not ostentatious is the Halacha. To be Makpid that once you are wearing low-key clothing on a certain type of clothing, per the Shulchan Aruch, is something that the Apikorsim are Makpid on and not Halacha.
yitayningwut,
All innovations are going to have sources to rely upon.
But with too many innovations in a short time, you will leave a lot of us overwhelmed by the changes.
Sam2 –
I don’t believe you are correct historically. That is, I don’t think the white clothing thing with the minim had anything to do with an over-abstinence from ostentatiousness, or at least that our objection to it has to do with that fact. But I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Josh31 –
You don’t have to follow their standards if you don’t want to. I don’t think it’s necessary myself. And it could be that you make a valid argument, as in not making the fence higher than the tree. I’m simply showing that they are coming from a source and a svara and not from nothing. We can disagree with them, but their view is not illegitimate.
I am surprised no one quoted the Igros Moshe YD 1:81.
The sefer Minhag Yisroel Torah (a really fun sefer actually)explains the minhag to specifically wear black and/or white.
Sam4: Care to elaborate on what he said?
Is that the one with the vort about ?? ???? ?? ???????
?? ???? ?? ??????
can mean not to change from the past whether to be more like everyone else or to be more different from everyone else.
DH: The sefer probably should have been called “minhag chasidei Hungaria Torah” just to be precise, but that’s just a minor quibble. I know the reason given for black is it’s a modest color that is supposed to increase yiras shamayim, but why white?
The question asked was if people from Europe can change to american styles. He brings the shitas M’harik that the problem is gaiva and pritzus. He said that the Jews from Poland can wear the same cloths as americans because it is Jews to Jews. It is a long tshuvah ,but basically he says it is mutar unless it is gaiva,pritzus or tznius problems(it is best to see it inside,I hope I quoted it correctly)
From how I understood it, clothing is clothing unless it is done for gaiva or pritzus. From this I understood jeans could be better than wearing a $100 shirt which looks gaivadik (just thinking out loud,not saying as fact).
Josh31 –
Don’t worry, you don’t have to defend that Midrash to me. Rav Moshe writes that it only applied before matan Torah.
I had another post before this one explaining the tshuvah a little bit , don’t know what happened.
IS: I can’t argue about your rename, but you have to admit, he has a broad knowledge base.
I don’t remember everything he says, but I recall that ideally we should wear all white, just that only ba’alei madreigah can do that because for the rest of us it will cause gayva.
He brings two opinions on wearing all black and then a third that gives the dissenters reason for wearing black as a reason to wear it. Or something like that.
He also explains the minhag to always wear a jacket/rekel as well as the vest that some chassidim wear based on the machlokes of over or under the shirt.
I believe I’ve also seen either there or in another sefer the reason for tucking pants into socks.
DH: Ideally we should all wear all white? Check out the Siman in OC that we’ve all been discussing.
Derech HaMelech –
I want to try something fun. I challenge you to make up a minhag (like, I don’t know – eating herring on Wednesdays*) and see if none of us here can come up with a geshmake basis for it.
*To which I would say has a source in that the bracha was given to fish on Wednesday.
Sam2: I’m not sure what nekudah you are trying to bring out from that siman. All it is saying is that we are not makpid on other people’s clothing, not that there is no reason not to wear a certain color/type of clothing.
I don’t remember the mekokr for wearing white, it might be from the zohar since I remmeber him mentioning something about the Arizal. But it is probably based on the posuk in koheles 9:8.
In any case as I said before, whatever the mekoros are for wearing white, today we can’t do that since it causes gayvah in people that are not mushlam in their midos.
Derech Hamelech: Or maybe it’s because the Shulchan Aruch says that it’s the Derech of the Apikorsim to be Makpid on such things?
ahgittetayna: I agree with you that it is not always difficult to find reasons for random minhagim, I see that as a generally positive in that nothing we do is empty, everything has a reason.
However, just like I can teitch Bereishis 1:1 as “Bereishis created…” and still be grammatically correct, I have to be careful not to make up my own answers to questions because that can get dangerous. There needs to be some discretion and answering to a higher authority with everything that one does.
When it comes to livush, there are minhagim with reasons al pi mesorah and kabbllah for dressing in certain colors and/or certain ways. I don’t begrudge anyone their decisions but personally, if I had two modes of dress to choose from, one with a rabbinically approved kavanah behind it- I’m going to choose that one.
Sam2: If you see the raid on the amud you’ll notice that they explain that their is an inyan in wearing all white, only that we should not be makpid on it over davening for the amud when the tzibbur wants that person.
This question has been burning inside me for some time now. I hope someone can answer…. Did Rashi wear an up-hat, down-hat, or shtreimel?
This question has been burning inside me for some time now. I hope someone can answer…. Did Rashi wear an up-hat, down-hat, or shtreimel?
The answer is… all of the above.
The up-hat wearers will tell you he only wore an up-hat. The down-hat wearers will tell you that he only wore a down-hat, and streimel wearers will tell you that he wore only a streimel.
And since we say “eilu v’eilu…” they’re all correct. 🙂
The Wolf
Rashi wore whatever the headcovering and dress style yirei shamayim wore in his time.
DH: Don’t own a copy. Interestingly, I was at a sheva brachos two weeks ago (feels like longer) where someone whose father was close with the Bobover zy”a told me some very interesting things about levush.
Re wearing all white, according to the original source in the mishnah, the problem was that it was derech haminim. The early Christians did it, and IIRC the Karaites did too, which would explain why they were makpid on it in countries that had Karaites.
A little off thread:
But this thread (white? colored?) has lead to OC 53:18 and created this question that has been bugging me:
“If you see the raid on the amud you’ll notice that they explain that their is an inyan in wearing all white, only that we should not be makpid on it over davening for the amud when the tzibbur wants that person. “
How do we have the Leader of the Mussaf when we pray for rain and dew and also on the High Holidays wear white, if in insisting on wearing all white by the leader of services became an idolatrous practice?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.