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Agav, according to what I’m saying the joke told by writersoul:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/machshava#post-532622
And by squeak:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/a-humorous-item/page/17#post-49194
doesn’t really make sense. And Sam2’s contention that it would be assur:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/machshava#post-532615
also wouldn’t be true.
???? ???? – http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/machshava#post-533010
Is that not poshut pshat in descartes? To the degree that it is possible to think about it, you must exist somewhat.
I am not entirely clear on the ????, but I believe that “Cogito Ergo Sum” is not supported by Torahdik Hashkafah. In fact, I think that ???? ????? say that we actually don’t exist; we cannot exist. It is a ????? to ???”?s ???? if we were our own entities not as a part of Him; we must be parts of ???”? rather than our own actuality. (Which is part of the Real Question of ????? ??????, that’s the Rambam’s ?????.) I don’t know if this is the right place to have such a sensitive discussion; if anybody wants to hear a very succinctly explained Shiur on the Inyan, you can listen to R’ Akiva Tatz “Predestination & Free Will” (Available for download on Simpletoremember.com)
Descartes cannot be interpreted as a ???? to existence if Jewish Thought [which doesn’t hold of our existence] is to be reconciled with it. A variation of that, though, can fit with our Hashkafah. We definitely do believe in Bechirha, however much it is mutually exclusive to the concept of Yediyah. And the world of Bechira is totally summed up by Descartes; I think therefore I am. It actually explains our practical solution to the stirah.
You’re right.
I am not answering the stirah; I am working with the way I understood the Ramba”m – that there is no answer, but ???”? in practise one must be ???? with ????? and not take ????? – however true it is – into consideration. Because inasmuch as you have two choices, you must choose; even if in essence everything is predestined and you didn’t have a choice at all.
Oh dear, I am not being very articulate.
Fascinating. I don’t remember saying Descartes is Assur.
Pashut Pshat in Descartes is that there is no existence. Nothing exists. The only things that we can know to be true are our own thoughts. We cannot ascertain the reality of anything else. Hence, the only reason and only place anyone exists is in their own thoughts. That’s the only place existence can exist.
Which, ironically enough, is very close to what yekke2 said. (And not at all what the Rambam held. CH”V to pin pantheism or panentheism on the Rambam.)
Do you mean: You only exist in your own thoughts – or you definitely exist at least in your own thoughts?
I was wrong for putting the Rambam into Descartes. There was a touch of truth to what I meant, but it is so small it’s not worth explaining. How did you understand Shittas HaRambam?
YW: Whoa! Descartes is totally Assur (as is the existentialist meaning behind his statement, probably).
– Sam2
yekke2: Presumably, my statement of Descartes being Assur was facetious but existentialism being Assur was serious.
I meant you only definitely exist in your own thoughts. Everything else may or may not exist. But since we can’t be sure of their existence, we must assume they don’t exist.
The Rambam believes that there is no Stirah between independent wills and God’s Will because… well, we can’t understand God’s Will and it takes a Godly Will to comprehend the answer to that. But, in short, other existence is not a Stirah to Yichud because God is what causes all other things to exist and there is nothing else that functions the way God does.
yekke2- whether we exist or not is a machlokes between the telzer rav and the Leshem.
Whoa! Toi. When did you come to the States?
If we’re in YWN, I think the best translation of “Cogito ergo sum” would be “I think, horaya I am”.
I didnt. i just broke my no posting shitta for bein hazmanim.
Saying “I think therefore I know that I am” can be mashma that it is a davar pashut that I am but the ability to know this is only because I can think.
cool didnt see this thread.
First to answer PAA in lomdish terms you would also say “mimaila u exist” type. Also i think its just an easy way to remember the shprach.
Sam2- “I meant you only definitely exist in your own thoughts. Everything else may or may not exist. But since we can’t be sure of their existence, we must assume they don’t exist.”>
Can u please explain that to me? why must we asume that?
Also i dont think he means you only exist in your thoughts. You ACTUALLY exist because otherwise you cant be HAVING any thoughts so u MUST actually exist. no?
Of course it’s happening in your own head, but why does that mean that it can’t be real?
Yekke2:
Firstly, congratulations on a well placed reference. And secondly, thank you for making a reference I was able to find this time.
Funny how the Rambam’s Shitah about Yediah and Bechira is taken as a fact but whether or not we exist is up for debate.
“existentialism being Assur was serious.”
I don’t think that Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l would say that.
oyyoy: Quite simply, in philosophical terms, if I can’t prove something, I have no right to assume its existence. Assumptions are the bane of philosophical logic.
well you have no right to assume its non existence
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