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I am not asking for a psak here- just for your opinions. Does anyone know if there is even a shaila about getting a black coffee at a McDonalds? I was recently in a rest area and bought one, as I can’t think of anything that could be wrong, but is this true?
I was once told by a rav that I am not allowed to buy a fountain soda in a not kosher place (like on a trip or something if I want to buy a drink) because we do not know what it is cleaned with. For all we know, they might be using their sponge that was used to clean ham to clean the fountain soda thing.
Don’t know if this is similar to a Mcdonalds type of thing but it reminds me of eachother since you can’t know for sure what they are cleaning the coffee pot with… could totally be wrong here though!!
happiest- I dont understand what your Rav told you. Generally, the problem is when the utensil was cleaned with hot water together with another treif utensil, not that the sponge is dirty.
Either way, not sure why you cant buy fountain soda. The soda you are drinking is cold and according to most poskim “covush” (soaking for 24 hours) wouldnt apply here.
With a coffee pot, its possible it was placed in a treif sink or dishwasher together with other utensils and now you are drinking hot coffee from it.
I think the Rav’s issue in that case was that you would have actual Mamashus of Ma’achalos Assuros in the drink. That seems a little far-fetched to me though. I would also assume, even by a fountain drink, that there are some Mar’is Ayin issues to walking in to the McDonald’s in the first place.
by now i think most peopple know that your going in for soda. o wait. remembered halachah. dumb post sorry
I would think that there is Maris Ayin issues and also you have to see that it’s just coffee, not coffee latte or something like that and they didn’t use anything that was used for treif to clean it. But don’t pasken from here, ask your local kashrus organization or rov
Normally it would be maris ayin to be seen walking in, but there may be room to be meikil at a rest area where you could be going in for anything and anyone already in there sees that it’s a soda.
I don’t frankly see any maris ayin issue at all. If I walked past a treif restaurant and saw a frum person inside sitting with some people, I would assume he was on a business meeting and was not eating. If I saw a frum man walk into McDonalds himself, I would assume he was using the bathroom or buying a soda.
Isn’t that what you would assume?
Isn’t maris ayin only when people will think you are doing something wrong?
(Ex. It is maris ayin to wear something which is labeled as a wool/linen blend, but it is not maris ayin to wear a Hugo Boss suit because everyone assumes you had the shaatnez removed.)
why is getting a black coffee at mcdonalds any diff then getting a black coffee at starbucks or coffee bean…mcdonaldsd is the token “treif” place but practically why diff than any other coffee house without kosher certification
The Mar’is Ayin Sugya is very complex and intricate. I’ll just say that many Poskim and big Rabbonim have said that walking into a McDonald’s for a soda or to use the restroom is an issue and leave it at that. Whether the Issur is actually Mar’is Ayin or something similar is not something I really want to write out at the moment.
The OU recinded its hechsher from Starbucks coffee a few months ago. By the way.
i recently had the same sheilah while on vacation. i assumed, like you that there was nothing wrong. when i got back, i had a shmuez with my rav, and i asked him about it, and he said that the shailah isn’t a shailah of “tevilas keilim” for machine parts, but rather if the parts were washed in warm water with “treif Keilim” and for that some are “somech” that the dishwashing detergent is good enough to say it’s “plitah”.
Bottom Line: ask your rabbi, but there are those that are “machmir” with this
bekitzur- Where did you hear that? There are more than 65 starbucks items currently on the OU website.
PBA- Maaris Ayin is not to be confused with having to be dan lkaf zchus. Even if you can think of 10 valid reasons for someone being in a treif restaurant, it doesnt mean others will think the same.
Also, did you know that something that is assur to do because of maaris ayin may be asur even in your own room with noone else around to see?
See below for an in depth article by R’ M.D. Lebovitz of the Chof K on maaris ayin. http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/halacha/volume_5_issue_12.pdf
In my opinion Morris Eyen is only an issue if the person entering the establishment is wearing a kipah or other identifable clothing. I’ve got to find this guy Morris and take him out!!
“I would think that there is Maris Ayin issues”
That is why you wear a baseball cap into the store rather than a yarmulke.
“The OU recinded its hechsher from Starbucks coffee a few months ago.”
Some Jew at Starbucks probably let management know that plain unflavored coffee doesn’t need a hechsher and that they were wasting their money paying the OU.
I only went there to use the bathroom at the CT rest stop and there was a blackout there so I didn’t go in,
Hey how did u know I was there?!
Popa is correct here. I cannot imagine anyone can be so stupid as to dress yeshivish, walk into a McDonalds and order a cheeseburger. Therefore, I cannot imagine anyone suspecting such person of committing any issur whatsoever in McDonalds. He is obviously there for acceptable reasons. A coffee or soft drink or use of a restroom are only two examples of many. Let this issue rest, there is no problem with mar’is ayin.
I think many of you missed yungerman1’s valid point that maris ayin applies even in your bedroom if no one sees you.
Thank you Tomche! 🙂
In a rest area its not Maris Ayin as everyone knows everyone stops there for the bathroom , Drinks, Souvieners or just a strech
If its a normal McDonalds Maris Ayin Might apply, but if you use the drive-thru then maybe not
Avoid all the shailos. Just buy a bottle of 5 hour energy.
Wait 5 hour energy is Kosher? where did you see that? I’ve been wanting to try that for the longest time. Good thing Red Bull is now Kosher.
I dont buy the stuff, however…..
I did find this on Star-K website
http://www.star-k.org/loc/kosher_letter_12297_livingessentials.pdf
Look for the hechsher on the bottle, I guess.
“The OU recinded its hechsher from Starbucks coffee a few months ago.”
They did? Go here and do a company search for starbucks and over 60 products come up certified by the OU.
popa: I’d think so too, but the halacha is not to hang laundry up to dry right before shabbos because of maris ayin. Wouldn’t any normal person think that clothesline in the frum person’s backyard was filled before shabbos?
5-hour energy has a Star K on the bottle (I’ve seen it at least). It’s so bad for you though I have no idea why anyone would be willing to drink it with any consistency.
In a rest area its not Maris Ayin as everyone knows everyone stops there for the bathroom , Drinks, Souvieners or just a strech
I was making a play on words with coffee in McDonalds
popa: I’d think so too, but the halacha is not to hang laundry up to dry right before shabbos because of maris ayin. Wouldn’t any normal person think that clothesline in the frum person’s backyard was filled before shabbos?
Itche: I have never studied maris ayin in depth (except for the sugya in YD 87) so I cannot address your case.
Yet, I find it impossible that maris ayin does not take common sense into account. My Hugo Boss suit case, for example.
PBA: There are certain cases of Mar’is Ayin which are pure Issurei D’Rabannan and apply regardless of common sense. There are some cases which might be Muttar for common sense. The Acharonim discuss what applies where. There is a separate Halachic issue of “Vih’yisem N’kiyim Meihashem Umiyisrael” which also tells us to avoid things that will allow people to be Chosheid us or that they would learn to do wrong from us. Common sense should apply to these. But common sense doesn’t mean that “I know the guy is frum, therefore he is probably doing something Muttar.” It’s more like something where the general assumption of using that object could be for something Muttar. I would think that going into a McDonald’s in the city would be Assur from this but on a rest stop on the highway would be okay.
PBA: There are certain cases of Mar’is Ayin which are pure Issurei D’Rabannan and apply regardless of common sense. There are some cases which might be Muttar for common sense. The Acharonim discuss what applies where.
Agreed. That is not the case here.
There is a separate Halachic issue of “Vih’yisem N’kiyim Meihashem Umiyisrael” which also tells us to avoid things that will allow people to be Chosheid us or that they would learn to do wrong from us. Common sense should apply to these.
So far so good.
But common sense doesn’t mean that “I know the guy is frum, therefore he is probably doing something Muttar.” It’s more like something where the general assumption of using that object could be for something Muttar.
Source?
I would think that going into a McDonald’s in the city would be Assur from this but on a rest stop on the highway would be okay.
Maybe. Maybe not. I think McDonald’s in the city is fine. It looks like neither of us knows and we are just zugging boich svaros.
And I like my boich.
Look at the cases about where we worry about Chashad. I can’t think of any perfectly off the top of my head, but they are not cases where we say “Oh he’s frum he’s probably doing something Muttar. (It might get modded, but remember the case of a person entering a Churva in the beginning of Berachos. We could assume he is going there to Daven, but it’s still Assur because most people who go there-not frum Jews, but people-do so for inappropriate reasons.)
PBA- Are you refering to the shatnez in your Boss suit?
“I can’t think of any perfectly off the top of my head, but they are not cases where we say “Oh he’s frum he’s probably doing something Muttar.”
Perhaps not perdectly analogous. Beitza yud zayin amud beis. the din is that if someo0ne is a meizid and does not make an eruv tavshilin, his food is muttar to eat on shabbos. someone who through “harama” (not ribui shiurim) coooked for shabbos without an eruv tavshilin, chazal assured his food. the reason. By a maized, chazal are not worried someone might learn from him that we dont require an eruv tavshilin, an onlooker will chalk it up to “he doesnt listen to chazal as it is”, while a “regular” fellow who does harama, an onlooker might make a mistake and think it is ok to do. (see rashi). So, at least in this din, chazal were concerned a person might say “he’s frum and cooked without an eruv tavshilin, must be muttar”.
PBA- Are you refering to the shatnez in your Boss suit?
Yes. And I have never heard anyone say it is assur to wear a Hugo Boss suit despite that everyone knows they have shaatnez.
And you don’t need to drape cotton plants over your shoulders. (See YD 66,0 one should put out scales in fish blood when drinking it to show it is from fish; See also YD 87 regarding putting almonds with almond milk when eating with meat.)
How would anyone know the brand name of the suit you are wearing?
And since the shatnez can be removed, what difference is it that it is known that such a suit initially contained it?
PBA- You have a good question but a distincition can be made as Chein said. When someone sees you wearing a suit they most likely can not know which brand you are wearing and don’t assume its a suit made with Shatnez; hence no maaris ayin.
Regarding YD 87, this wouldn’t apply to having a coffee with pareve milk after a flieshig meal because its so prevelant and one immediately assumes its pareve milk. However, to drink pareve milk straight up during the meal is a problem because that is not common. See the link I posted above- Thanks Mod!
Firstly, there is no distinction since many people can tell a suit.
Secondly, you can always make distinctions. I don’t know the halachos, and neither do you. And I like my boich svora better.
popa: This morning I came across a gemara relating to maris ayin that is completely irrelevant today (it was maris ayin of belonging to a sect that no longer exists). I asked about it and was told that there are no hard and fast rules as to what is a gezerah with a lo plug and what is circumstantial and that one must check the poskim on a case by case basis. Now: Where can we find an analogous case in the poskim?
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