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ok change that last one of mine to be addressed to JayMatt
and i KNEW that wasn’t a mod-like thing to post 😉
Done
YW Moderator-99 (I’ll do the editing for the time being!)
Feif, “We really need to move back to the system of only the best and brightest sitting an learning full-time for most of their lives. Everyone else should be supporting their families, and learning whenever they have time.”
Agree with everything besides for the part about the best and brightest because G-d does not judge learning on expertise but rather on effort. Your words should say only those truly interested…
Why in your example does the Kollel guy not spend time with his wife or kids. There are plenty of Avreichem who spend time with their wife and kids (and even do the Parsha Sheets with them).
If you want to compare the two, do so fairly, please don’t paint an unflattering portrait or use stereotype.
As for which one is better, everyone has their own nisyonos and tafkid. After 120 we’ll know. Until then, there are Gedolim who guide us.
feif, #1 is just a lazy guy. if you put him into the second scenario he’d be a lazy guy who gets fired from his job because he wakes up at 9:00 and doesn’t make it to the office till 11:30.
there are only two types in your way of thinking? don’t be stupid.
>>There is supposed to be a Yissachar-Zevulun partnership. Just remember, Yissachar was only one of the shevatim, <<
1st of all, Shevet Levi was learning full time as well (other than when they were doing the avoda)
Secondly, I cannot say how annoying it is when someone quotes the Yissachar-Zevulun partnership. How many TRUE Zevuluns do you know? The partnership is supposed to be 50/50. Zevulun should not be driving a BMW, while giving Yissachar enough to buy a ’78 Dodge. I have met people who support torah. But never a real Zevulun.
Btw, please show me where in the Torah there is a Mitzva to work. “Through the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread” is a curse, not mitzva. And if your going to say “ein kemach ein torah” look at the entire mishna (ein torah, ein kemach)
Bravo, moish!!!! I like your openmindedness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
~a~
Let those who want to learn go ahead and do so. But it has come to the point where someone who isn’t cut out for learning his whole life is viewed as a second-class citizen. No wonder so many kids feel like failures. As for the dismal math of everyone learning, the Torah is omeid al haneis, meaning yeshivos should never do well bederech hateva. If we turn today’s kids into successes instead of failures, we might find ourselves with less dropouts and less kids turned off to Yiddishkeit. That was the point of the article. In Lita, many balabatim were big lamdanim. Not everyone is on the level of Rabbi Shimon Bar yochai of “Toraso umnaso”. It’s time we realize that when the gemara says Rabbi Yishmael’s way of talmud torah im derech eretz worked out better, the gemara knew better than us.
try not to sound so surprised, anonymisss.
JayMatt, How can there possibly be a real relationship like Yissachar/Zevulun, when the group preaching for Yissachar looks down upon the Zevuluns of the world? Why would I ever give my money to someone who thinks my lifestyle is a way to live only if you cant get someone to support you?
Also, the numbers balance doesnt work out. When its a small percentage of people learning full time, communities can band together and make sure those learning have a good lifestyle. But when the ratio is skewed, how can the community afford it?
Please show me where in the Torah it is my obligation to support those learning Torah full time to my detriment…
To SJSinNYC. The definition of a Zevulun isn’t he who isn’t a Yissachar. Both recognize the need for torah. One learns it, and the other works for it. A Jew doesn’t invest in this world, they invest in the next world. If you want to work and live a luxurious lifestyle, fine, just don’t use Zevulun’s name as your heter for doing so.
Shemos Raba (52:3) states the following story: Once a student of R’ Shimon bar Yochai’s left Eretz Yisroel and returned with great wealth. The other students were jealous and wanted to leave Eretz Yisroel to get their riches. R’ Shimon took them to a valley near Meron, davened, and announced: “Valley, valley, fill up with gold coins!” The valley soon filled up with gold coins. R’ Shimon turned to his students and said, “If you are seeking gold, here it is! Take for yourselves! But be aware that whoever takes now is taking from his share in the world to come”
>>Also, the numbers balance doesnt work out. When its a small percentage of people learning full time, communities can band together and make sure those learning have a good lifestyle. But when the ratio is skewed, how can the community afford it?<<
The numbers aren’t skewed, we are. Yissachar/Zevulum was 50-50. It isn’t 1000 people giving change to support 1 person. It is skewed because we have convinced ourselves that luxuries are really necessities.
By the way, please show me where one can only learn if someone supports them. If you are claiming that people learning have a sense of entitlement towards other people’s money, or that they don’t truly have bitachon in Hashem, then that is a completely different conversation than the one we are having (and one where our views could very well be identical).
not surprised, moish, just appreciative of it as opposed to some others here….
~a~
JayMatt, I understand that not everyone is a Zevulun. But understand that the society that preaches to sit and learn, looks down on people who go to work. You cannot be a zevulun if you don’t have money to give someone. Unfortunately, in this world, we need money for food, shelter, clothing etc.
In old times, support mainly meant food. So someone could plant an extra acre for another family to feed and help them build a house. Nowadays, its food, shelter (which requires monthly payments as opposed to just helping build someone a shelter), medical insurance, yeshiva tuition…it takes a lot more than it used to. So you DO need a skewed number.
Not everyone needs support. But most do – most women (especially if they dont go to college) don’t earn enough to support a family.
If you doubt this, find out how many people in Lakewood are on WIC, food stamps, government health insurance, HUD…what is that if not support?
Yasher Koach JayMatt for standing up for the Kavod of the Torah Hakedosha.
I’m confused. You are in NYC and you complain that your tax dollars go to support torah in NJ.
Thanks Joseph, chizuk is always helpful
JayMatt, I work in NYC but live in NJ. Regardless, my point stands.
Ames, yes thats beautiful in theory. But when groups of people who LOOK DOWN ON MEN WITH JOBS, then they shouldnt ask for any money from those with jobs. THAT INCLUDES TAKING OUR TAX MONEY. True, Hashem can hand everyone lots of money. But thats not the way Hashem generally runs the world.
Also, just because someone doesnt sit all day and learn, does not mean they arent Bnei Torah. My husband gets up earlier than every kollel man I know (as does my bro-in-law and most of the other men Iknow). Its much harder to wake up at 5 am to daven/learn, then go for a long day of work and learn some more…All men are obligated to learn!
In reference to the original topic of this thread, here’s another interesting tidbit from the mishpacha article on Reb Chaim Shmuelevitz (search mishpacha.com for “Shmuelevitz”). I am appreciative that Mishpacha’s articles are OCR-searchable, allowing me to cut and paste from the PDF’s. Quote:
It is almost inconceivable how this
giant, a man who lived in a rarified, sublime
world, who scaled the loftiest heights, was
so aware of the realities of this world, was
able to address the uglier side of the human
heart in such a normal way.
He once remarked to a talmid that he
thought the practice of certain Yerushalmi
families to have their children don
shtreimlach at the age of eight or nine was
Children needed to be children and
then, only then, could they be adults.
On pages 42-43 of “In Their shadow”, Rav Shlomo Lorincz is describing how the Chazon Ish gave a sizable donation to trade schools set up to teach a parnassah to those who couldn’t learn full-time. When Rav Shlomo Lorincz expressed his surprise at this, being as the Chazon Ish was the one who pushed for full-time yeshivos in Bnei Brak where none existed before, he said, “We must show concern for those who need a vocational school, in order that such students remain within our framework and do not become dropouts from our ranks, chas veshalom”. This is why he was a gadol. While he very much believed in the supremacy of Torah, he fully understood that there are those who aren’t suited, and they should not be pushed away from the ranks of klal yisroel. Contrast that to today, in which many yeshivas get more and more elite, and the dropout problem gets bigger and bigger. Halevai that Gedolim could run our yeshivas, eliminate the protektzia, and treat our children the way they were meant to be treated.
I spent a few years learning in kollel before leaving and joining the workforce. It is mentioned by many gedolim that someone who works all day and learns at night is a much bigger masmid than someone who learns all day but doesn’t learn a minute more than he has to, or hangs out in the yeshiva (or YW)coffee room. I have personally found that my learning, while much lower in quantity, is a much higher quality since I have to struggle for every minute of it.
I am happy that my tax money is going to kollel families instead of to welfare queens or Wall street bonus millionaires. If the government is giving away money, why shouldn’t people take advantage? All of the rich people have advisors telling them how to maximize their college scholarships and minimize their taxes. The big banks gladly take the government money and use it for bonuses and junkets. I’d rather my kollel friends get my money than my Wall street friends.
>>JayMatt, How can there possibly be a real relationship like Yissachar/Zevulun, when the group preaching for Yissachar looks down upon the Zevuluns of the world?<<
They don’t look down on the Zevuluns of the world. The TRUE Zevuluns they look up to! They look down on those failures who spend there waken hours in pursuit of the all-mighty dollar. The ones for whom a car is not a means of transport, but rather a status symbol.
I don’t understand. Why does Kollel mean not paying full tuition?
According to economic theory, the ones who need the product the most will pay the most for it (Demand curve). As such, since the kollel families are the ones who are least likely to send their children to public school, the yeshivas should charge them more and they will have to pay it, as opposed to the non-kollel families who have another choice (public school, breakaways (since they have capital to start up a new school) or homeschooling (as one parent may not work, or it may not be worthwhile due to tuition payments)?
Just a pet peeve of mine, even though it will never happen.
side point: we have no idea whos learing is more chashuv in the eyes of Hashem, and it would be terrible to tell anyone that they can’t sit and learn if they want to do so.
Ames, if you think Kollel people don’t look down on those that work, why would Striving (the nice young woman who is looking for a shidduch) say “It’s a frustrating thing that if you tell a shadchan that you want a boy who’s working part time, they’ll think you’re not serious about torah… “?
Right now, schools are preaching to their students that being in Kollel (or being a Kollel wife) is the ideal way and anything less is only done if you cannot do that. I think you are kidding yourself if you think Kollel society doesnt look down on workers (please note: I am not talking about individuals. I know plenty of individuals in Kollel who do not look down on others. I am talking about the general view).
As for the philosophy of taking services: it happens to be something I am against. Services are supposed to be there if you NEED them, not to put yourself in a situation to need them. I really wish the government would change the provisions, but until then, I am still allowed to be upset with how my money is being spent. And I really wish that people taking services would understand them for what they are – CHARITY from the American people. Getting services is not really a “right” but charity provided by others.
As for the economy – my statement about Hashem handing out money was sort of directed to the story about the Valley of Gold coins. I 100% agree that Hashem controls all money (and everything else).
And most kollel men I know, generally wake up later than working men who learn/daven before work.
Let me explain my philosophy in a different manner, that maybe is easier to understand.
Your husband is working and you have a few kids. You pay all your bills. Your first kid goes to Yeshiva and you pay full tuition. By the time the second kid gets there, you cannot afford to pay full tuition. So, do you apply for a scholarship or do you go get a job? You prefer to be a stay at home mother, but is that fair to the rest of the community that shoulders the added burden? No – you should be responsible and go get a job (assuming of course that you make enough money to cover the cost of daycare and such). Or, you get a scholarship. Now you find you have $500 to “spare” – do you give it to the school to cover costs, or do you buy new clothes for Shabbos? I would give it to the school because I don’t believe in being an unecessary burden on anyone. Are there times that scholarships are necessary? Absolutely, and there is no shame in taking one. But you really should be doing everything in your power to not need one.
They don’t look down on the Zevuluns of the world. The TRUE Zevuluns they look up to! They look down on those failures who spend there waken hours in pursuit of the all-mighty dollar. The ones for whom a car is not a means of transport, but rather a status symbol.
If thats true, does it matter if they are driving a 78 dodge? They shouldnt care. And, one outfit for shabbos should be enough. One pair of shoes should be enough. Most women I know in Kollel have more than that – are they pursuing too much gashmius?
Jaymatt, I know quite a few rich families. Most of them are not striving for gashmius – they have it, and use it, but don’t worry about the status. They might buy a nicer car because it has better pickup and a smoother ride, but the ones I know don’t buy status cars just for status (I mean, how many Porsches do you see, even amongst the rich)?
Do you count supporting your kids as part of the zevulun relationship? Because I do know plenty of parents that support their kids in the way they raised them (if they can).
OK, this is getting really long…yasher koach if you made it to here 🙂
At the beginning of this thread there were opinions regarding school, it’s obligations to molding our children and the role of family.
An odom godol said that the home is the ikur place of chinuch, the school is the supplement.
I think parents need to have more self confidence in their abilities to be the ones to be truly mechanech their children and not be so incredibly reliant on the school to do the educating and parenting. The schools and yeshivos have their place, but ultimately it is the parents who must take resposibility to how they are mechanech their children.
That means parents have an achrayus to how they guide their children in their spare time-boys and girls.
Here is a quote from an upcoming Horizons article:
How did this elitism come about?
What took place over the next forty years was the rise of an elitist system. When I was growing up and went to school, the teachers would speak to the average student, trying to involve and reach everyone in the class. But in an educational system geared to the elite, the teacher cares primarily about the geniuses, certainly not the slower students.
In this system, there are certain known yeshivos at the top, and everybody wants to get into them. From the earliest years, parents and their kids are aspiring and planning to achieve acceptance in those elite schools. The teachers and principals are also caught up in it.
What reaction do you get when you say things like this?
And naturally parents are ambitious for their kids and want the best for them.
An elite shidduch for an elite school graduate.
Oh.
Rabbi Haber: You know, not everybody can be the tzadik of the generation. Rabbi Dr. Avraham Twersky tells of a discussion he once had during a visit with the Steipler Gaon, whom people often consulted for medical advice. Since he had heard that Rabbi Twersky was a psychiatrist, he inquired about medications for mental illnesses.
Sounds like the system is designed to spread the malady.
Do you have a solution?
Thank you, Rabbi Haber.
Rabbi Haber: Thank you.
Kudos to Rabbi Haber for telling it like it is.
Unfortunately, the system is far from ready for his proposals.
I remember when Rav Shteinman Shlita came out with his reluctant support for the Nachal Chareidi. He was immediately, and I emphasize, immediately, ripped to shreds in the chareidi press and in numerous vicious pashkvilim which made him appear like an archetypal hater of Torah.
Feif Un–the east coast booming cities are in a position to make such mandates for their school to have such standards. The way it seems to me is, if parents wish to send their children to such a school, then they have to follow those standards. It doesn’t mean that the schools have now removed all options for parents to use their sechel and imagination to see to it that their children will use their scarce spare time wisely. And if a parent wants that TV/internet in their home, then they will have to either choose a different school, or rethink what takes precedence.
As far as being loaded with homework, that is the schools achrayus together with the parents to have good open communication to see how it is affecting their students/children. This partnership is crucial and a well balanced approach is a necessity in building well balanced children. Ultimately though, it is the parents who must do the parenting, and do the best they can despite the flaws of the school. We as parents of the future of klal yisroel owe it to ourselves and our children to have confidence in our parenting abilities and to instill in them a Torahdik approach to these challenges in life.
Well, I’m not exactly sure how it works in Lakewood and other places, but I assume the school is “owned” by those who make the school policies. Just like a store can mandate “no shirt, no shoes, no service” a school has the right to make it’s rules. If you don’t like their rules, then don’t go there. Just like the school says, this is a school just for girls, then no one can make a fuss about the fact that they won’t accept their boy into the bais yaakov. They’re not telling you that you don’t have a choice whether or not you want a tv in your home. But they surely have the right to say if you want to be in this school these are the conditions.
Well that is one reason why I think in a Utopian world we would have school districts with school boards and the schools would be run like a government entity. It’ll never happen, so if you do want a more open and flexible school you would have to R”L move out of the tri-state area.
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?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$% Brian D. Quickwhoa thats cool but its a good thing u left the signature there or i would be scared!!!!! who has that kind of patience?!
yeah i was gonna cut it out but i figured it would probably be gnevas daas
🙂
Colonel Moish is a tzaddik gamur. Never takes credit from others. Always worried about yenem’s kovod.
you mean Brian D. Quick’s kavod?
stop, joseph it’s assur to be malbim pnei chaveiro berabim. (unless i’m not a chaveir? that’s kind of you.)
Moish, what do they say? Miktzas shvacho b’fanav?
hey what’s the shevach for anyway? not doing the wrong thing?? that’s pretty stupid.
The drawing was off topic. That was just a can of Coke. It has nothing to do with Yiddishkeit – not even Hebrew lettering.
i should look for an israeli can of coke? don’t think that’s got much to do with yiddishkeit.
HOWEVER: it’s got an o-u so that’s pretty jewish, aint it?? there’s nothing more jewish than food (with a hechsher, of course ;))
nah. i think the title’s more like the “(and moish)” one. its a dual topic
moish: ha awesome can of coke!!! thanx i enjoyed it, nice & refreshing!!!!
moish, cool pix! I like!
~a~
I agree, moish. If you add the OU then it would be on topic.
I didn’t know Coke had the hechsher printed on the label.
Coke’s hechsher, unless they changed it, is etched on top of the cans and printed on the label of the bottles.
Interesting point-many of the yeshivos and bais yaakovs are getting rid of soda machines and no longer allowing soda at siyumim etc. So, coca-cola classic will become a thing of the past when it comes to finding it in our children’s schools….
Kiruvwife, why are they getting rid of it? To help with health and childhood obesity?
Joseph, not everyone lives in NYC.
sjs-yes that’s what a friend of mine told me in a few of the east coast schools. I believe that was the main purpose although I’m sure there were other reasons.
kiruvwife, I’m impressed. We really should have health/nutrition classes in yeshivas.
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