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Rabbi Yakov Horowitz wrote a great article here on the modern view of the chinuch system. Basically, he feels it is broken, and needs to be fixed. He writes that the previous generation had a much better idea of how to raise their children, and we need to revert back to their system. Less learning Gemara b’iyun, and more time learning other things – even secular studies. Less pressure on the children, and more time instilling a genuine love for Yiddishkeit.
I highly recommend reading this article from a renowned expert in chinuch.
Yes, the chinuch system must be revamped.
When I was in HS, we were forced to memorize details of Gedolim’s lives that were utterly pointless.
Instead they should have taught derech eretz. My teachers constantly complained that these girls lacked respect. I would often look on painfully as I couldn’t control my classmates, but wishing they’d listen to me when I told them to just be quiet and let our teachers teach!!
B”H, I was an extremely respectful student…but I flunked that Gedolim test, BIG TIME. You tell me what’s more important?
don’t have time to read the article but I think it’s the one we were discussing at our shabbos table. Powerful comparison to the coke ad. my own vort: ‘new’ is not always improved
There is a famous story that someone once asked the Satmar Rav ZT”L why many Yerushalmi kids learn so well when they’re younger but nothing became of them later in life. He said, “If the kids don’t play when they’re younger, they play when they’re older”.
Rav Matisyahu Solomon once did a study of the leaders of the “masmid” programs as elementary school kids, and checking what became of them. He found NO correlation between kids who did well in those programs and later Yeshiva success. Let kids be kids. He is absolutely correct- go back to raising talmidim, not gedolim.
Thats very interesting but…
to play devil’s advocate slightly, if you remove some of the pressure/obligations (obviously non-halachic), then you also risk the “idle hands” problem.
yeah but chs vesolom a single second of learning the heiligeh torah should be wasted! so let’s pump the guys up with as much as possible till they explode. when they go home and won’t open a sefer for the rest of their lives, THAT’S not bittul torah, is it??
they don’t realize that an extra few minutes a day could make a guy so sick that he’ll never want to learn a gain. and they think they gained another hour.
and they’re never gonna learn. they always think they’re better and know better. even if you create new schools, they’re always gonna be second rate.
If kids are allowed kosher outlets, they won’t need unkosher outlets.
The problem is when “they” decide that truly kosher outlets aren’t. There aren’t too many left. An example: back in the day, the really, really good boys were the ones going to nursing homes erev Shabbos and giving concerts. Now, if a boy plays an instrument you have to kler, did he have any kind of learning issues so the music was a tool for focusing, or this, or that…
This is why we have, and need, Gedolei Yisroel Shlita to make these important decisions for Klal Yisroel.
joseph, i hate to be so blunt, but what do they know? as great and brilliant and wonderful as they might be, they can’t understand for even a second. they’re the ones running the schools now, right?
moish: i agree, i know peoplelike that.$
Joseph, I agree 100%. the problem is that in many cases, the gedolim aren’t consulted. The gedolim were quite clear that kicking a child out of yeshiva is a drastic step that must be deliberated on for quite a while. Rav Shach ZT”L once called some mechanchim “rotzchim” for not doing that. There are kids kicked out of yeshivas every day. How many of them are done with the haskama of gedolim? We also find that in yeshivas run by actual gedolim (Reb Yaakov ZT”L, Reb Moshe ZT”L, et al), the curriculum was a lot more tolerant of kids being kids.
Jothar, good line “If the kids don’t play when they’re younger…”
Suppose the kids would have more free time, society being what it is today, what do you think they would be doing? Honest answers, please!
~a~
For some reason my web browser shuts down every time I click on Feif Un’s link. Could somebody please copy and paste the article?
anonymiss, it’s not my line, it’s the Satmar Rav’s. Most elementary school kids could do with less homework. As for high school kids, I honestly couldn’t tell you. Homework is a poor substitute for honest-to-goodness parenting.
yes, ames, I completely agree that all people; children, teens, and adults, all need time to unwind. I’m just not sure that what kids/teens would be doing in this time will be good, either.
~a~
Like a few people mentioned, we need to follow the directives of the Gedolim on these (and other) issues.
ames, its funny that you should mention stamp collecting as an activity. What made you think of it? (Yes, I have had that hobby since young childhood.)
What about our teenagers? Any ideas?
~a~
moish01: “i hate to be so blunt, but what do they know? as great and brilliant and wonderful as they might be, they can’t understand for even a second. they’re the ones running the schools now, right?”
no offense to u moish, but u can not make a statement like that cuz they do understand eventhough it may seem to u like they dont. u might not agree with what they say and u might think u know how schools and yeshivos should be run- but u dont. ur a lil kid, and not a rabbi. if you have questions, get answers. dont just bash rabbis like that.
and im not arguing the fact that things need to be changed with the yeshiva system, obviously there are many changes that need to be made but they can only be made with the help of ppl who are truly experts in these type of things…..
Feif Un,
I know what you mean. There was a kid in my grade who was always in the Beis Medrash learning. I saw him once leaning against the wall just standing there and I asked him why, he replied that his rebbe kicked him out of the beis medrash.
i never said i knew how to run a school. that’s why i would never attempt to run one. but NO ONE should if they don’t know how to do it right.
i think the problem is that originally everyone went to public school or day school. when a yeshiva opened up only the guys who REALLY wanted to attend begged their parents to let them go. eventually more yeshivas opened and they wanna now produce major masmidim like tuna fish cans. the ones running the show don’t realize that just because they were dying to go and were willing to give up playing ball for learning, no one wants it that badly anymore. and if you wanna play ball you’re not the top guy anymore. doesn’t matter if the “top guy” has his head in a box. as long as there’s a flashlight and gemara in the box with him.
do you know when i wanted to play an extra hour of basketball (on free time) after school, one of the rabbis came over and told me not to because it’s such a waste and that it’ll be bad for shidduchim?! i was in NINTH grade! (not that same stupid rabbi – a different one)
>> moish01
Member
joseph, i hate to be so blunt, but what do they know? as great and brilliant and wonderful as they might be, they can’t understand for even a second. they’re the ones running the schools now, right? <<
I don’t mean to pick on you, but this statement is really bothering me. The Gedolei Yisroel have a much broader picture and deeper understanding than us on ALL matters; no matter what we think they do or don’t know/understand. They have a tremendous amount of siyatta dishmaya that we can not comprehend. They can perceive consequences and what is really for the ultimate good of klal yisroel. Us? We just have our little 2×2 vision and think we can change the world.
If we don’t have emunas chachamim, what are we left with? Who will be Hashem’s shaliach to take care of us and defend us?
moish- your statement: “the ones running the show don’t realize that just because they were dying to go and were willing to give up playing ball for learning, no one wants it that badly anymore.”
whom do you mean by ‘no one’?
yeah but can 20/20 vision see in the dark?
and who do i mean by “no one?” every single kid out there. maybe everyone has a different tolerance level. and some guys are by nature more passive so that take orders laying down. but there’s a limit to how much anyone can be choked.
the only guys who make it at the top are the guys who like it and want it. in that case, they are not forced to do anything. according to their logic, they are handed whatever they want on a silver platter.
areivimzehlazeh:
Part of this discussion is how the gedolim are no longer running the schools, and the directors have used them as their personal feifdom. This is what Joseph & Jothar pointed out earlier. Its not the Gedolim, its “others” who don’t listen to the Gedolim.
hey areivim, no answer here? i guess you can’t say i’m right. for once.
sorry- just read this, i ALWAYS have a comeback 😉
…. that was my comeback 😉
ok, seriously-
GAW- I think you misunderstood me. You are 100% correct. However, I was not taking moish’s comment with all the context around it aka this entire thread; just the bashing of the Gedolei Yisroel was really bothering me, so I aired my thoughts on the matter is all
and- when I asked about ‘no one’, I was just trying to make him realize that what he feels doesn’t necessarily apply to the entire klal
areivim. big deal. so many of the guys who come out on top didn’t have anything pulling away. i’ll be really impressed with a guy like me who learns.
Areivim, sometimes gedolim might lose sight (or not have the exact insight) into certain problems. They arent perfect and can make mistakes.
Also, if people stop following gedolim, are they really still gedolim? Or just unbelievable men? (if you understand my distinction)
joseph: i think u saying you collect stamps is actually the only thing u revealed abt the real joe!!!!!
Here is a story proving my point from the excellent book “In Their Shadow”, Yonasan Rosenblum’s English translation of “???????” by Rabbi Shlomo Lorincz, which is chock full of selected stories about The Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, and Rav Shach. I highly recommend it for anyone who’s looking for an honest look at what made these 3 Gedolim. On page 16, the author is discussing the fact that many yeshivas of his time refused to take Sephardi kids. One such Rosh Yeshiva told the Chazon Ish that he didn’t take Sephardi kids because he felt they would not be successful in their learning. The Chazon Ish said back, “If that’s the case, how is it that you study the Rif and the Rambam?” In another story, a Rosh Yeshivas rejected Sephardi kids because they don’t speak yiddish, the teaching langage of the school. The Chazon Ish advised the man to switch to ivrit so he could accept Sephardi kids. Keeping the language as Yiddish would force kids who don’t know Yiddish to worse schools, and the loss would outweigh the gain of not speaking ivrit.
Today in Israel, the shanda of segregating Sephardi and American kids is a reality, despite our Gedolim.
asdf, I’ve collected postage stamps (Philately) since 9 years old (and still do)!!
SJS, The Gedolim don’t need us as much as we need them. They are Gedolim whether everyone or no one follows them. They are G-d’s messenger’s on Earth.
Joseph: cool!!! i collect rare u.s. coins!!!!
asdfghjkl, I collect U.S. coins too!
Joseph: maybe we go to the same dealer!!!
asdf, subscribe to any numismatics periodical?
joseph: nope, but i really should!!!!
SJS, The Gedolim don’t need us as much as we need them. They are Gedolim whether everyone or no one follows them. They are G-d’s messenger’s on Earth.
I agree that we need them more than they need us. But, if everyone ignores them, are they one of our leaders (what we call gedolim), or just an adam gadol?
>>We really need to move back to the system of only the best and brightest sitting an learning full-time for most of their lives. Everyone else should be supporting their families, and learning whenever they have time. <<
Every word of Torah learned benefits this world in more ways than we all can imagine. Why should people stop learning?
And your idea of “best and brightest” is foolish at best. Look at the order of the meraglim and see where Yehoshua was placed. Yet HE was appointed as the new leader.
How to you plan on checking “best and brightest”? Is the current high-school system not cutthroat enough for you? What would this do for the shidduch crisis?
if you’re gonna use an IQ test you’re gonna get surprising results. the smartest are not necessarily the ones learning. (…ahem…)
and the best are overrated. (…double ahem…)
😉
Every word of Torah learned benefits this world in more ways than we all can imagine
I think Feif’s point was that sometimes its detrimental to the communities also. If Kollel is ideal, and 100% of people are in Kollel, AND women staying home is ideal so they stay home, how will anyone feed their children? Forget yeshiva tuition!
Every man is obligated to learn. Working doesnt mean you don’t learn. It just means you fulfill the requirements of your ketubah in addition to learning.
This post is from JayMatt19
If a person (or family) want to make the sacrifice for Torah, because they know that to be the Ikar, who has the right to tell them not to, because he isn’t “the best or brightest”. We all have different levels and different nissyonos. I don’t need some guy in a hat and beard deciding whose Torah is more valuable.
JayMatt19 – I cut and pasted your post and put it here. I wouldv’e just edited it but I guess I still new at this and deleted it completely. – Sorry!
I’m still new!
If a person (or family) want to make the sacrifice for Torah, because they know that to be the Ikar, who has the right to tell them not to, because he isn’t “the best or brightest”. We all have different levels and different nissyonos. I don’t need some guy in a hat and beard deciding whose Torah is more valuable.
If he is relying on my money to sit and learn, don’t I get some sort of say? Won’t my tuition go up to cover the costs that he cannot? Won’t my taxes go up if he is on government subsidies?
JayMatt19, then i think you’re safe asking charlie brown. he doesn’t strike me as the hat + beard kinda guy. (maybe a hat, but no beard!)
and don’t ask joseph. he’s definitely got a hat and beard 😉
… you can always ask me…
39, I guess this makes up for my gaffe in the d’var torah forum.
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