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Do I need to (or is there an inyan to) close my online business for Shabbos? And is there a difference between a regular eCommerce site to an Amazon business?
You definitely need to ask a Rav. You cannot rely on any answers you get here.
B&H, which is a major online e-commerce site and one of the most respected names in the world in the photography industry, does not accept any orders during the 25+ hours of Shabbos.
Their retail store, which is packed with customers six days a week (and has a Willy Wonka-like trolly belt moving orders merchandise between three floors around the store from salesman to warehouse to checkout counter), closes for the entire Yom Tov, including Chol Hamoed. After being closed for over a week, the day after Yom Tov there is a line outside their store, circling around a Manhattan block, of customers chalishing to get in.
im not a posek but i can tell you from a rav i asked-being that im in a business that deals on Shabbos-that as long as there is work towards that amazon sale or ecommerce needed to be done before Shabbos &/or after shabbos (posting the sale is done before shabbos, shipping & billing is done after shabbos upon completion of sale etc…) then it is fine.
to add a note if you will say the 3 steps of 1)posting sale 2)selling it (on shabbos) & 3)billing & shipping is 3 separate things & the buying is only done on shabbos & a sale then you are incorrect. IT IS ALL ONE BIG JOB why? cause without posting you got no buyer, without buyer you have no billing or shipping work. thus it is all 1 job for everything involved in each order rather it is done before, after or on shabbos.
still double check for yourself with your LOR but everything i wrote is from a LOR i asked regarding my business on shabbos
joseph
is B & H website unaccessible on shabbos like a frozen screen (i wouldnt know since im B”H A shomer shabbos yid)or are all orders that are made on shabbos just not placed as official orders until motzai shabbos?
does their website freeze & leave a note to all visitors website is closed for sales now please return on sunday for your purchasing interests?
If you use Amazon fulfillment there is no way to shut it down for shabbos
Meno: “You definitely need to ask a Rav. You cannot rely on any answers you get here.”
+1
Kingdavid – in that case, though, he definitely shouldn’t be anonymous.
B&H’s website disables the ability for anyone to place an order during Shabbos. There is a note that no orders can be made during Shabbos.
Joseph,
Just curious, how do you know that?
There are different views on the subject. Some say (see below) that you are doing business on Shabbat and therefore prohibited. Others say that you not making a sale, just taking orders – akin to receiving a mail order.
In any event, you should talk to a posek.
From Rabbi Mansour’s daily halacha site:
“Rav Shemuel Pinchasi (contemporary) addresses this question in his new book (listen to audio for precise citation) and rules that it is forbidden to allow the site to run on shabbat. Even if the majority of those accessing the site are not Jewish, and even though the site owner will process the orders only after shabbat, he must have the site shut down during shabbat. Rav Pinchasi cites a number of leading Halachic authorities who hold this view, including Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, Rav Chayim Kanievsky, and Rav Yonah Metzger.”
MA, There are religious Jews in other time zones as well. The site is up but there’s no shopping cart or checkout available. (I’m not sure about order history.)
Chabad’s website is completely inaccessible which can be inconvenient if you’re on the west coast and need to find last minute details on the local branch.
B&H uses its own website, if you do things via another website like Amazon, Wal-Mart of eBay it works differently you have less control
Meno, Google: B&H No Orders Sabbath
You’ll find people kvetching on all the major photography websites/discussion boards that they can’t place orders on Saturday.
“If you use Amazon fulfillment there is no way to shut it down for Shabbos”
How does this answer the question?
One would have to ask a Rov familiar with how Amazon fulfillment works (and there are Rabbonimm who are very knowledgeable about the specifics) and the one can get a psak.
Meno,
I have seen the notification on B&H’s website on Erev Shabbos saying that you only have “x” amount of time left to place the order. This is a paraphrase, however it was clear that they were closing down the order module for Shabbos.
They also post notices on their web site and in the store well before Yom Tov that they will be closed.
Meno: “Joseph, Just curious, how do you know that?”
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/web-scam-hdcameraworld#post-4494
LU,
Lol, good find
Meno – I had a good teacher.
Rav Wolfson said: A yid that believes that hashem can give him Parnassah is 6 days , does not need to have his online business running for 7 days.
He also doesnt totally understand how it works by that statement, you cannot turn off Amazon Fufillment for 25 hours, Which is how the real money is made on Amazon
While some people like B&H run their own website, most people use Amazon, ebay and Wal-Mart which work differently
ZD: “He also doesnt totally understand how it works by that statement, you cannot turn off Amazon Fufillment for 25 hours, Which is how the real money is made on Amazon”
That’s irrelevant if he feels that it is wrong to have an online business running for 7 days. Parnassah comes from Hashem alone, and you will gain nothing by doing improper hishtadlus (see Chovos Halevavos and other Mussar sefarim). I don’t know anything about the halachos involved, but apparently Rav Wolfson (if he was quoted correctly) considers this problematic and hence, unhelpful.
LU
If you are going to make a statement about a business, at least know all the details
B&H runs their own website so they can shut it off for 25 hours. Not everyone who makes money selling online has their own website and is a “slave” to the rules of the websites they are selling from.
While it can be done to run an online business from your own website, not everyone can do it and therefore must use Amazon and eBay and on Amazon and ebay you are subject to their rules and operation of the website (If you Fufill the items yourself you can put your store on vacation, however if you let Amazon Fufill you cannot put store on vacation)
And I bet if people spoke to Rav Wolfson, he would mention B&H and that they do it, It is not the same as using Amazon or eBay.
And BTW Amazon doesnt even give you the money until you ship the item, The Payment system is different than if you use your own website like B&H. Ebay uses paypal which puts the money in an escrow account and can take it back at will
ZD – It’s possible you’re right and what he said was based on misinformation. However, I think the more likely possibility is either that he was referring to those people who do own their own businesses or that he thinks that people should not work for businesses that do not allow them to close for Shabbos.
As you wrote:
“If you are going to make a statement about a business, at least know all the details”,
Don’t you think that a poseik would make sure to have all the information he needed before he issued a psak? And wouldn’t it be “chosheid b’kisheirim” to assume otherwise, especially if there is a viable explanation?
If the goy you rent your storefront bases the rent on a percentage of sales, and the rental terms demand the store be open seven days a week, you’ll keep the store open on Shabbos by hiring a non-Jewish worker for Saturday?
If the psak is you can’t keep your Amazon store open on Shabbos, how’s that different than the storefront with the non-Jewish Saturday worker?
If you use Fufillment by Amazon, you cant close it
Its not the same as a corner store
The only way to close it , is to get your stuff back which takes about 2-3 weeks.
And BTW there are other Psaks that it is not a Halachic sale since a Kinyon didnt actually take place. Espcially on Amazon where you dont even get the money until you ship the item
Joseph:”If the psak is you can’t keep your Amazon store open on Shabbos, how’s that different than the storefront with the non-Jewish Saturday worker?”
ZD: “If you use Fufillment by Amazon, you cant close it”
ZD, if your statement was a response to Joseph’s statement, it’s not a good response. If it’s assur, then it’s assur, and you are not allowed to open it in the first place.
Note: I have no idea if it’s assur or not – I am just noting that the response is not a logical response to the premise.
LU
Joseph compared a Brick and Mortar store to an online store, they are not the same. By his comment , he has no clue how online selling works
And Like I said there are plenty who say because there is no Kinyan it is not a Halachic Sale
LU
In case you didnt know, online selling is how I make my parnassah so i am VERY familiar with the process and the Halachas. Ive had people ask me how it works
LU: Do pharmacies shut their phone systems for shabbos so non-jewish customers can’t call in refills? I know that my pharmacist does not.
ZD: I hope the analogy above helps.
ZD – please read my post carefully before commenting on it. Nothing you said in your last two posts relates to my comment.
There are Frum Pharmacists?
I only thought all Pharmacies were Either rite Aid, Walgreens and Duane Reade. There arent any local Pharmacies anymore
Everything related to your comments, you just don’t seem to understand what he is saying. Or how online businesses work.
Lilmod: +1
lilmod ulelamaid,
ZD – please read my post carefully before commenting on it. Nothing you said in your last two posts relates to my comment.
I disagree. Zahavasdad responded to your “if it’s assur, it’s assur” comment with:
And Like I said there are plenty who say because there is no Kinyan it is not a Halachic Sale
and
i am VERY familiar with the process and the Halachas.
These responses seem to me to be an argument that his type of business is mutar, which does relate to your post. Perhaps you are looking for him to say that he personally asked a shaila and got a psak, but you haven’t asked that directly.
I once forgot to close my Amazon store on Shabbos & a world renown Posek whose name I will not mention as that posek does not like his pisokim made public told me that I could ship out the item but I must give all the profit I made to tzedakkah. Therefore if you can’t close a fulfillment by Amazon store on Shabbos I would think based on this psak give all the profit made from the sales on Shabbos to tzedakah. This way you won’t have to worry whether you can sent items in to FBA or not.
Yes, ZD, there are still “mom and pop pharmacies” in Flatbush.
Another suggestion would be to spend time before Shabbos raising all the prices on the items you send in to Fulfillment by Amazon so high that no one will purchase it & of course switch the prices back after Shabbos.
I would think based on this psak give all the profit made from the sales on Shabbos to tzedakah. This way you won’t have to worry whether you can sent items in to FBA or not.
You can’t extrapolate that it’s okay to do something l’chatchilah from a psak of what to do b’dieved.
To DaasYochid
I think the best suggestion is my second post. This way no one would purchase the items because the prices are so high.
I agree, I’m saying the other option might not only be unprofitable, but also problematic l’halacha.
And what if someone actually does order your box of Kleenex tissues on Shabbos for $30/box?
And what if someone actually does order your box of Kleenex tissues on Shabbos for $30/box?
Nothing
In fact on Amazon you dont even get the money until you ship the item. Its not like the B&H website where they get the money before the item is even shipped
Eli51: Your second suggestion could permanently affect your business as people will say that the site is a rip off so don’t bother with it.
To Joseph if someone buys a box of Kleenex tissues unexpectedly than you give tzedakkah of all the profit you made. To iacisrmma by second suggestion was for Fulfillment by Amazon should you have your own website you do what B&H does by closing the checkout page for Shabbos. The way Amazon works customers see a cheap price they purchase the item as long as the seller has a good rating & sellers on Amazon cannot get a rating unless someone purchases an item.
B&H, as well as any other credit card merchant, does NOT get the money before they ship. The credit card is only authorized, not charged. It is only charged once they ship. This is per the standard VISA/MasterCard/AmEx/Discover agreement.
They don’t take orders altogether on Shabbos anyways.
If you price something too high on Amazon, they block the item and it takes up to 48 hours to get it re-instated.
While too high is not really defines you probably could get away with listings a tissue box for $20, but not for $200
To Zahavasdad if you higher the price enough like selling a tissue box for $20 & you still happen to make a sale you give any profit you make to tzedakah this way you won’t have hanoah of a sale on Shabbos.
Are you allowed to give Tzdekah from “ill gotten gains”? even if unintentionally
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