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Reading through the short skirt thread it seems that many people think they have the answers. Some people provided thoughtful answers while others seemed a lot less thought out. I dont know if anyone has the right answer or not but what I do know is that there are a few misconceptions that people have about Tznius that I think we need to think about.
There are people who are of the firm belief or opinion that either of the following 3 options will lead to a marked improvement in the problem. I will explain shortly and succinctly why they all wont work.
1. More drashos and speeches
2. Education (in a nice way or whatever)
3. Force, public humiliation….
1. Drashos dont work because the people we are talking about are BY grads. They heard 10’s if not 100’s of shiurim drashos and speeches on the topic. If they are still opting to dress untzniusdig there must be something else at play.
2. Same as 1, these girls/women made a conscious decision to dress the way they did and know all about Tznius they just dont care.
3. When you try to force someone to do something you get resentment and more rebellion, they will just get worse and worse. You cant force people. If you ever must say something, say it in the nicest way possible and in a loving manner or the person will never listen to you.
What Im trying to say here is that we have a problem of educated BY grads who just dont care and wont be bothered to dress Tzniusdig even though they know the Halachos, were brought up in frum families and went to mainstream schools and seminaries. The problem is these girls are rebelling to some extent or just dont care, it doesnt bother them.
The question now is, why, how? How can this be that frum BY grads just dont give a hoot about Tznius and wont bother dressing properly? In my opinion there seems to be a disconnect between their heart and their minds. They know they shouldnt but dont feel it is important enough to dress properly. Why are their hearts so dulled? Why are their neshamos so sullied that they dont have any feelings to such a basic mitzvah for a bas yisroel?
This is what has to be addressed. The root of why theres this situation of prikas oil (discarding/discharging of the yoke of shomayim). I previously wrote that it has a lot to do with non Jewish influence in the home and I still stand by that. The movies, tv shows, broadway shows, novels, music, newspapers, magazines and anything else I omitted have a very powerful and sometimes subtle effect on our sensitivities. We dont even realize what it does until one day we look in the mirror and wonder how on earth did I get this way, whered the innocent frum me that I was was disappear to?
Im sure there can be more to it than what I said but I think this is a large part of whats happening to us in general and this isnt just with Tznius, its with the guys as well, the reason why boys are distracted and waste so much time and arent serious about learning as well as why people in general are just not as frum as they should be and why theres an opposition towards things frum and wholesome. It comes from this soul pollution from non Jewish media and entertainment.
If anyone has other thoughts as to why women are having this emotional disconnect to Tznius we can now have a more intelligent and intellectual discussion.
Kol Tuv and a Gmar Chasima Tova
I agree with you. There is also something that someone mentioned on the other thread which was that the “tznius” morah would lift a girl’s sweater to check if her shirt underneath was buttoned appropriately. Now I am a woman and as a young girl I would be totally embarrassed and humiliated if anyone, even a woman, did that to me. To me that is totally not tzniusdik, lifting a girl’s sweater to check what is underneath. It is appalling to say the least and totally degrading. Most probably meant to be so. Any similar measures that a “tznius” morah would use would certainly turn off any student and would “force” her to rebel not only against the system but against the issue making her own choices in the future of what she felt her idea of being a tzanuah was. And if in her mind being a good frum Jewish woman who didn’t embarrass others by looking up their sweater or measuring their skits by touching their legs with a ruler, then that’s it. They might have been so embarrassed by these “so called tznius morahs” that they closed the book on what those morahs said represented tznius. I probably would have also.
Let me tell you what my HS principal, a”h, did in Central Brooklyn. He was very fair minded and didn’t chase anyone he conducted “fire drills” and he stationed himself at one exit and another frum teacher at the other exit. As the girls left the building he looked down at the skirts. If he felt your skirt was too short he said “go home and change and looked up to see which young lady he was sending home”. If he passed anyone in the hall who he felt was not up to par he would call them into his office and tell them to go home and change. But he always did this in a quiet way without embarrassment or fuss. If he called you into the office more than a few times, he would politely tell you “I see that you are having difficulties living up to the standards of this school and that is fine for you if that is what you want and need. But that is not fine for us. So it is your choice, if that is what you choose I will be happy to call Rabbi “X” at Yeshiva of Flatbush and arrange a transfer for you. You have 10 minutes to give me an answer.”
The other thing he did was check our lockers and confiscate the “long skirt” that seemed to make its way around some of the girls to cover up the shorter skirts they were wearing. It just seemed to disappear into thin air. After a while the girls didn’t bother with it. That was the extent of it. The rest of the inyan of tznius was the role model of our Morah’s and the respect we had for our Rebbeim..for instance one of the Rebbeim said, “you know girls, I really cannot be in this room with you and teach you Torah if you are not dressed appropriately”. That is all it took. He didn’t point his finger at anyone, he didn’t say your knees are showing, he didn’t talk about knecks or elbows. We respected him for his honesty and all the other modest teachers for believing in themselves and their choices.
Aries, that principal seemed quite tough, but you say he was a good influence on you. That seems to contradict what you just posted, that toughness causes rebellion.
WellInformed, I think you are overlooking a very simple thing. Most women want to look nice and sharp, not shlumpy and nebby. Possibly they think that they look shlumpy and nebby in certain styles so they avoid them. Unfortunately, a number of frum women seem to dress so totally disheveled and baggy that it turns off people from tznius.
EDITED
ARIES:i went to a school out of town and had none of this going on,either.
WIY and whoever else–if you actually read my post…i gave examples of pOsitive and non-oppressive ways to imbue the girls with the “tznius is actually kinda classy”way of thinking.
Pashutah yid, he was not “tough” and I am not contradicting myself, HE was consistent and he played fair not dirty. WE all knew that there would be fire drills. And we all knew that if you were caught with a short skirt you would be sent home to change. You weren’t suspended, you weren’t berated you were sent home to change. Now home could have been 3 blocks away or most likely Boro Park and even Canarsie since Central was in Flatbush where Shulamis is today. And believe me it was no fun going home and coming back when it was cold, rainy or snowy outside.
And another thing, we were also dealing with outside influences because we were in the hippy, mod, make peace and love not war, LSD, pot, Vietnam, SSSJ, JDL, Rav Meir Kahana z”tl generation. We were in the mini and maxi skirt generation. And btw the new Jewish sensation MBD, who did not stand still when he sung his songs, if you remember how he started out. But interestingly enough WE didn’t have an issue so much with necklines and sleeve lengths. It was mostly the knee length. So I don’t see where you find me contradicting myself. Never did my principal ask a woman teacher to check under a sweater, or measure a skirt with a ruler. We all knew how and where we would be caught, we all knew the rules and we all knew that he didn’t want to deal with our parents but expected us to act like adults.
We also all understood the inyan of negiyah and had open discussions with our Rebbeim in class if any of the girls were sitting on the fence about it. As kids the question came up about gloves, and if one is wearing gloves is it still considered negiah. At that point the Rebbe closed his sefer and said that it is important that we have a frank discussion so that everyone understands the rules clearly and concisely and the reasons behind it.
WE also had pre-kallah classes in our senior year. Just enough to know that we would need to go to Kallah class when we got engaged. We came out of High School knowledgeable and prepared for the outside world.
These are all very good ideas for the most part but I think people should clarify what is halacha and what is extra. All you have to do is cover A, B, C, and D and all the rest is chumros.
If instead of someone coming over to you and embarrassing you in public for wearing a short skirt or whatever, focus on the positive on what the girl is wearing and don’t mention the negative. Like, where do you find such tasteful clothing that is tsnius too?… If you build her up a little, she will want to live up to that standard.
If there were some tznius women who were with it and stylish so you had someone to look up to. So that it isn’t that being tznius is equated with frumpy.
As for the question as to why BY graduates and students don’t dress tzniusly, there could be a million different reasons. A few I could think of off bat is:
A) the BY just teaches stuff as rules, do this and do that and none of the beauty, so why should I?
B) A teacher or someone gives a speech that you’re gonna burn anyway and you aren’t frum if you are lenient in something. So their attitude is why do I have to do all this, I’m already gonna burn. (this does happen btw)
C) There are so many other areas that I have to work on, tznius I’ll do last.
What inspires me and makes the biggest impression on me is when people tell me what the outside world thinks of you when they see you dressed tzniusly. How special they think you are…
“The problem is these girls are rebelling to some extent or just dont care, it doesnt bother them.
The question now is, why, how?”
Very simple, actually. I think I may have heard the refrain that a Bas Yisroel is supposed to be “Attractive NOT Attracting” a million and a half times. Problem is we as humans are hard wired to want to attract the opposite gender, and by dressing a certain way, even if it is -1 inch here and there we are getting positive feedback from our male counter parts.
If the boys started not liking it the girls would stop doing it.
It is really that simple.
So sad but true.
I never understood the “attractive but not attracting” concept. If you are attractive, aren’t you by definition attracting?
I didn’t read the entire thread but I want to add something. Being a by girl myself (currently) and knowing that I don’t dress perfectly, a lot-even most of it is from peer pressure. And for anyone who thinks we don’t know the halachos-we most definitely know them and whoever violates them is doing it quite knowingly. Yes, every time I go against halacha knowingly I feel mighty guilty but there is a major pressure in today’s society that many girls (myself included) can’t always fight. Whether its right or wrong is a different story.
As a man I won’t make even a half hearted attempt at trying to answer how, what or why a woman might dress the way she does.
I did want to comment on 2 points that were raised.
. The rules, the dos and don’t are repeatedly stressed, but the beauty of it is not. Put another way, I think the person was saying, if someone understands what it means to be a bas yisroel, a bas melech, proper dress wouldn’t be an issue. I think there is great merit to this line of reasoning. It reminds me very much of the Slabodka approach to mussar, “gadlus ha’adam. One of the first things written about Rav Ezrachi Shlita (one of todays leading “slabodka” talmidim) is how he carries himself and how he presents himself including his apperance. If the gadlus ha’adam approach could somehow be incorporated into chinuch habanos generally and tznius specifically we may not be having this discussion.
.This sentence, I think, is extremely important. “What inspires me and makes the biggest impression on me is when people tell me what the outside world thinks of you when they see you dressed tzniusly. How special they think you are…”. This is an affirmation (not that he needs it) of what the sefer hachinuch writes in mitzvah tes zayin, “adam nifal kifi peulaso”. In short you keep positively reinforcing an idea and a person will strive to that praise. The chinuch turns the saying “confidence breeds success” on its head. He seems to be saying “success breeds confidence”. Its difficult to summarize a long chinuch, its worthwhile to see what he says in his own words. The sentence I quoted affirms this idea. The greatest inspiration to be a tzanua she wrote, is hearing how speacial other people thought she was. And as the chinuch himself writes “mitoch chelo lishma, bah lishma”. (Never did I ever think I would quote a chinuch explaining the lav not to break bones of the korban pesach in the same sentence as tznius).
A gmar chasima tova to all.
Wellinformedyid
“Girls have an obligation/chiyuv/mitzvah to dress Tznius regardless of how much men like how they dress when they dress untzniusdig. Its really pathetic to blame the boys.”
I’m not debating your first sentance, and I wasnt blaming the boys. I was putting the situation into perspective. You claim to be a “wellinformedyid” no doubt you are, but do you really know whats going on out there?
Woman dont dress for themselves they dress to attract, if a designer would find out tom that a garbage bag is what men liked we would all be wearing it. Its the same in the frum communities. Depending on where you live (even in frum communities) you’ll see tznius styles/trends vary according to taste and what is acceptable. Would the way woman dress in flatbush ever fly in Monroe? NEVER! noone would look at you twice, maybe to throw you out, but thats about all.
Gmar Chasima Tova to all.
I’ll repeat this again because I think its really important.
Most women dress for other women, not other men.
Continue on with your conversation.
SJS: That’s not what Sacrilege is saying. She is admitting women dress to be noticed by men.
I disagree.
Most women dress for their friends or other women. Otherwise, why would they go to womens only events dressed to attract?
Sure, some women do dress to attract men. But the overwhelming majority don’t.
A man may notice a plunging neckline but he won’t notice that you got XYZ fancy brand’s brand new sweater and paired it with haute coutour skirt. Oh and those exquisite shoes! Most men don’t care.
SJS: That may explain the designer stuff etc., but doesn’t explain the rising hemlines and tight clothing which is a larger problem than the designer stuff.
so right, that’s whats in style. And available to buy easily. Everyone (not me LOL) wants to be “in style” so they buy a skirt that’s 1″ shorter than they want because really, its still 3″ below their knee! And then that becomes 2″ and 1″ and all of sudden its on the knee. And then there is a totally cute skirt that is 1/4″ above the knee. What’s the big deal? They’ll wear it on thier hips…sometimes.
Its really not for men.
SJS – When a designer designs they make the clothes to accentuate parts of the body.
True that its a snowball effect that once you are get all into the clothes you become obsessed with designers, you have to keep up you appearance all the time…
I never claimed that woman look like old hags when amongst friends/other woman. But, if they are getting more/better feed back from men when they are dressed not as tznius not tznius at all, there is really no incentive to dress tzniusdikly. I think the struggle is that here you are toying with the abstract (mitzvos/aveiros) and instant gratification (positive feedback) of the men.
Sacrilege, absolutely that’s how the designers are designing. But that’s not the motivation of the frum women, which I think is really important.
Women dress to impress their friends. BY girls don’t often socialize in coed environments – they are dressing to attract attention from their friends. If a guy on the street notices and gives them a look? Great, means they look good. But they aren’t doing it because of that.
It may not start off that way. But the girls in the Bais Yaakovs are usually pretty well behaved until they get out. And then of course everyone wants to look good. And then they get “into shidduchim” and everyone is dressed to impress.
I dont know how many phone calls I got about friends “Does she dress well?” No mention of “Is she tznius or not?”
I’m not solely putting the blame on the boys, clearly us girls are the ones dressing wrongly. I just dont think the boys are in the clear.
Who are they dressing to impress? Shadchanim, MILs, women in the community.
They want to dress nice when they date, but not the way they dress for the neighborhood.
SJS is right, Frum women dress to impress other women! Young frum women dress to impress other young frum women. Girls dress to impress older frum women who are looking for shiduchim for their sons!
One of the things that I believe would be helpful and I mentioned it before but no one picked up on it, is if the yeshivas would give mandator sewing classes and make them fun and creative for the girls. Teach them how to take any skirt that “no longer fits” and make it longer. Or open the seams and make it a little looser. Fix a dress that is tight and make it a little looser and add something pretty and creative to the end of the sleeve to make it a little longer.
If the girls learn how to do this in school for their own Shabbos clothes or everyday clothes to make them last longer, then when they get out into the real world or when they go shopping on their own, it will be a no brainer that if the designer skirt is a little too tight or a little too short, they can add their own touch without much effort and “make it work”.
However, this will only work if it is done in the right way. If the “tznius morah” teaches the class with her whip in hand it is pointless.
In addition, if they learn to sew their own clothes they might find they have no need to go out and buy designer clothes but they can be their own designer, and who knows what the frum clothing industry would look like in the future.
Clearly we are going to agree to disagree on this issue. No sense in beating a dead horse.
dont be silly WIY
we all know that women arent interested in appearing attractive to men. this is a basic fact since the beginning of time. women dont try to attract men. its against their nature.
WIY, sure women want to look good for men. But sort of more abstract.
They wear the shocking pink shirt with the ruffled bow and flower because they will look uber cook for their friends. Do you think women think men care about that?
Boys are on one side girls are on the other at a wedding. Even if they should notice each other it is rare that they can find out who the other is unless they can somehow meet in the lobby. But when we are talking about BY girls that is not the case. So they are really dressing up for the WOMEN who need to notice them in the sea of other girls. And the bochurim today are so into letting their parents handle their shiduchim so no, the girls are not working on attracting the boys, really they are trying to attract the girls.
Those boys and girls looking to attract each other don’t need to do anything but be themselves and they will find each other. They don’t need makeup, they don’t need fancy clothes, nothing more than a jeans skirt and a tee shirt, or pizza and fries. Even more important is an opinion or an original thought that is even more important and attractive. There is a line in a movie called “Jerry McGuire” the line is “you got me at Hello” and that is the most attractive this day and age. All it takes for boys and girls who need and are looking to connect is a warm, friendly and sincere “hello”. Sometimes that is all a young adult really, really needs. And I am not saying “needs” in the sense that they are looking to connect with the opposite gender. I am saying that they need a real friend and sometimes it winds up being someone from the other side.
“Clearly we are going to agree to disagree on this issue.”
Which myth, exactly, was cleared up? 🙂
Gmar Chasima Tova.
Here is one myth that I will clear up – at least for myself. I dress only to please myself. When purchasing anything to wear, I only think of how I will feel wearing it. If others like what I am wearing that is just a bonus.
Another problem is kol hamosif gorea. When you tell girls they can’t wear denim, although there is not one shred of a halachic source, they start to believe that all tznius is optional as well, and just made up arbitrarily by some grinch who wants to take all the joy out of life.
VERY good point!
SJS is right. Frum women (and I believe women in general) dress to impress other women, not to attract men specifically. Men could not care less what women are wearing (in terms of style, fashionability, labels, etc. ) that is something women tend to look at. I never cared much for labels, and lucky for my husband, not much for real jewelry, either (I love jewelry that is PRETTY,but really don’t care if the stones are fake or it is goldplate rather than 14K). In the frum velt WHO is it who really is seeing women dressed in their finery? OTHER WOMEN. The men at the simchah are often on the other side of the room, they are not in shul with the women, and they don’t spend time with them – so who really is seeing them and being impressed?
Sacrilege is being honest with herself when she notes women dress to be noticed by men.
I agree with minyan gal. When I try something on in the store, I don’t think what will others say. I buy it if I like it and I think for myself if I look good in it.
If people are dressing for what other people think, maybe their should be mass self-confidence boosts. Nothing to do with tznius just self confidence and once someone feels good about themselves they wont have to wear non-tznius clothing.
APY – I was noticing that SJS and myself were not agreeing so there was no need to push the issue further.
aries – What world do you live in? and is there an availability for me to come and join?!
Helpful – thank you for clarifying. Whilst not always the case for me it sometimes is and for literally 100s of other girls.
OOMIS – while men dont care about the label (bonus points when you get your friend to be green with envy at your designer labels) usually the labels are the clothing that are going to look “just so” making you look perfect. Accomplishing both goals.
I think girls dress nice to be noticed by other women and then they’ll add a few touch ups for the men.
When they buy something new it’s like I have to show (insert girls name) she’ll be sooooo jealous!!! or something to that affect. When they buy it, for the most part, they first think what will other girls think of me and then will men be attracted. But I don’t think men are the first thing on their mind while they dress or when they buy something.
Sister Bear – Let me ask you a question, When you go out (date, wedding, with friends) How long does it take you to get ready? and at what point do you think that now I look good? Whos standards are those? Yours? Or what other people are going to think looks good?
As a married frum man I noticed that so far nobody has written “married women dress to look good for their husband”. I think my ego has just come down a few notches 🙂
Women dont dress 100% to get reactions from men, true they also dress for their peers.
However the BY environment doesnt really prepare them to understand a mans reaction to an attractive woman. Its called being naive.
I remember in highschool girls saying that negiah is a chumra. (Very religious school)
They dress like that cuz they want to look pretty, its as simple as that.
Goes to show, this is a controversy far more complex than one would expect. I still believe MOST women dress to impress each other. we don’t show off our jewelry to guys. When was the last time a man asked a kallah to show him her engagement ring?
As a married frum man I noticed that so far nobody has written “married women dress to look good for their husband”.
That’s exactly the problem! The same women who dress to kill on the street (with a complete disregard of tznius), dress like a shlumpy maid in the house with their husband. Makes one wonder.
Oomis, tznius is a strict legal requirement in Judaism, whilst kindheartedness is very appropriate but not legislated by law unlike tznius, hence tznius clearly being more important.
Whoever said that women dress 4 each other is 100% correct! As a by girl all i care about is what other girls and women think. I couldn’t care less what the boys and men think-they probably don’t know whats “in” anyhow. I don’t know-im not in shidduchim but i imagine that its a bit different at that stage and once ur married.
Sacrilege, I live in the Frum “real” world. One where competition among women is fierce! Are you aware that there are stores BP who have to tell their clients who else they sold the outfit to? And they have to guarantee they have only 1 or 2 pieces and will not sell it to anyone else?
Do you think any of the men in shul come out and notice the clothes the other women are wearing? Honestly they just want to get home and make kiddush. Do you really think they know the difference between Escada or Prada? Or unless they themselves are into designers do you really think they know who Hermes or Jimmy Choo is?
How high is high enough in a heel? Most men are just waiting for you to fall over and are tired of carrying your shopping bag when you change into your flats or sneaks for walking. And of course they make fun of all the women who can barely walk in the shoes they are wearing.
Maybe we are not the same age, or maybe you are not anywhere near the world that I live in, but in “MY WORLD” that is the truth. Even in the goyish velt, women dress to impress women. The cut, length and provocativeness of the outfit is meant to attract men, but the fit, style, design, designer, price etc, is all meant to impress other women.
aries, no one denies there is an element of competition amongst women social groupings. but that isn’t so much the issue at hand being addressed. as you yourself admit, in addition to that competition, there is the element of women “dressing to kill” to attract men’s attention. that is the hemline, cut, and provocativeness that you yourself spoke of. and that is wherein lies the major problem.
sister bear, even if them dressing to get noticed by men is secondary to their intra-women competition, it is still 1,000% wrong.
so right, unfortunately provocativeness is an issue, but by us I don’t believe it is to attract men, it is to be rebellious and show they don’t care. It is just as much to hurt and thumb their nose at the “establishment” and frumies who are shocked to see them break the rules. It is a matter of I don’t care, it looks good on me and i’ll do what I want.
Even older married women walk around that way in front of their own sons. So are you saying they are being provocative towards their own sons? Are they trying to be attractive for their sons? No, that’s not it. They just don’t care to cover up.
I think everyone has gotten off the topic at hand, and I am probably to blaim.
WellInformedYid was wondering why after all the speeches woman hear and after going through BY do they still dress un-tzniusdikly, and what, if there are any new suggestion, can we do about it?
My point, in bringing up the fact that woman dress for men, is that if maybe the Roshei Yeshiva would speak to the BOYS and somehow convince them how bad an un-tzniusdik wife is, thereby making it less attractive to them, maybe they wouldnt be giving the girls with the too-tight top, too short skirt etc etc all the preferences.
Also, I am not disagreeing with the fact that there is a gross amount of gashmius in clothing between woman, but that is a completely diff topic.
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