Clarification to mod and DaMoshe

if the only issue you have with christians is that they believe yoshke is mossia, i dont know where to start.
the idea of what you call “promoting moshiach” : moshiach told the baal shem tov that moshiach will come when his wellsprings will be spread outside – when all jews will learn chassidus. (see keser shem tov first letter) ושאלתי את פי משיח, אימת אתי מר, והשיב לי, בזאת תדע, בעת שיתפרסם למודך ויתגלה בעולם ויפוצו מעיינותיך חוצה מה שלמדתי אותך והשגת
so chabad who follows the ways of the baal shem tov, try to spread chassidus to bring moshiach.
telling others the rebbe is moshiach, is not clearly from the rebbe. but to explain the approach of the ones who do this: obviously the one teaching toras hachassidus which is a taste of the torah of moshiach – is moshiach. he’s the yechida klalis. now when the rebbe was alive, simply if all jews would accept him as moshiach, we would have been able to build the bais hamikdash, and all move to eretz yisroel. this needs to happen thru jews accepting someone as moshiach. the rambam clearly writes moshiach does not need to do wonders,
now even though we cant see the rebbe, the rebbe has a massive “army” continuing his work, and when all jews are ready, we can build the bais hamikdash and move to isreal. to my knowledge chabad is growing and growing and biderech hateva, the rate chabad chassidus is going now, pretty soon every jew will be learning chassidus.
its also explained in chassidus (derech mitzvosecha and many other places) that a melech can only be thru accepting his malchus by the nation.
i never saw ananswer whether you guys are chassidim, litvish etc?
also can you explain to me how moshaich will be accepted by all jews? mekoros?

Also putting aside everything: what is the issue with promoting moshiach? 1 makor that its wrong? Saying it was never done dosent mean its wrong, especially after torah shebal peh was written down. (btw rav bridewitz on youtube says that they once told reb moshe that chabad is “promothing” moshiach, and reb moshe feinstein said so? Whats the problem? You could deny this – no problem, but still rav bridewitz does not think its an issue, (and anyone who speaks bad about any jew – thats called lashon hara and its forbidden to accept))
There are plenty of things jews do today that jews didnt do 100 yrs ago: kolel for everyone, printing seforim especially translations and explanations, women working, late shidduchim, using technology (whatever level), does evey step i take need to have a mesorah?
also you never answered me about reb hillel zaltman?
gut shabbos, go learn chassidus and wake up your neshama

CS: Thanks for looking it up. I agree with you that if that is what the sefer says it is misleading in this context.

Thanks for being intellectually honest.

As to Karliner chassidim etc also running underground Torah study, I can’t give you any info other than I have read and heard about it from Karliner chassidim, and in a discussion not at all related to Lubavich’s activities in Russia.

CS: Interesting you view it this way. For me, and watching a student as well, when we learn the sichos that clearly point out the Rebbe as Moshiach through obvious hints, it’s kind of like a quiet, “Oh really? Yah I guess that makes sense. The Rebbe is nossi hador and nossi hador is Moshiach shebador. Right cool…”

That’s not the reaction I get when I get accosted by Lubavichers who try to prove to me that the LR is Mashiach, and I’m not talking about infrequent cases.

Like I said I never saw the navi thing used in this way. More like the Rebbe is saying it as Nevuah/ stronger than regular ruach hakodesh- so it’s really real and happening.
I do think the punishment aspect of navi which you are bringing up would only apply if the Rebbe was certified/ pronounced as a navi by others- whether in Beis din or whatever the protocol is.

There are only two types of nevi’im. 1. The navi to whom all the laws of a navi apply, including, as yb mentioned, someone being chayav misa bidei Shamayim if he doesn’t obey the navi, and 2. A navi sheker.

You can’t have “half-a-Navi” which is stronger than ruach hakodesh but not quite the full nevuah.

sechel: moshiach told the baal shem tov that moshiach will come when his wellsprings will be spread outside – when all jews will learn chassidus. (see keser shem tov first letter) ושאלתי את פי משיח, אימת אתי מר, והשיב לי, בזאת תדע, בעת שיתפרסם למודך ויתגלה בעולם ויפוצו מעיינותיך חוצה מה שלמדתי אותך והשגת
so chabad who follows the ways of the baal shem tov, try to spread chassidus to bring moshiach.

Just a second. Are you insinuating that all the other talmidim of the Mezritcher Maggid did not care about that statement you quoted? Don’t forget you’re referring to Reb LY of Berditchev (a mechutan of the Baal Hatanya), Reb Zusha of Anipoli (who wrote a haskama on the Tanya) and all the other gedolei ha’olam who were talmidim.

Clearly, the other talmidei Hamaggid understood the meaning of the statement differently to the way the Baal Hatanya understood it (if indeed that was the impetus behind his derech), and they spread chassidus in their own way without stressing the study of the kabbalah aspect of chassidus, as the Baal Hatanya did.

i never saw ananswer whether you guys are chassidim, litvish etc?

And I never saw the question, although I have mentioned a number of times that I am a card-carrying member of another chassidus which I’m sure you’ve heard of.

Arso: “There are only two types of nevi’im…”

I don’t think this is from your better arguments. As a Chosid, you’ve definitely dealt with Bechinos and Inyan of. You must be aware of the many levels of Nevua and Ruch Hakodesh.

@arso we – chabad – have our derech to spread chassidus chabad to everyone, like the alter rebbe – baal hatanya – said that its for every jew. some of the other talmidim held of different ways of spreading chassidus, to focus on belief in the tzadik, coming to him, etc. but they all were involved in spreading the teachings of chassidus.
are you asking a question? i dont understand.
alot of comments, the rambam says in igeres taimon that nevuah will return before moshiach comes, he says a year (before 5000)
everyone always yeared for moshiach the way chabad does, thats why when chabad started saying “we want moshiach now” a litvish gadol said its kefira because it says im yismamea chake lo.
anyway i doubt the average person outside chabad knows why awaiting moshiach is so important, one of the 13 ikrim. and you you know please answer (aderaba teach your freinds too)
phishing attempts deleted (again)

“Food for thought about tznius in chabad: 1) who exactly are you criticising? The fact that we don’t have a Rebbe cuz he would fix it, well in chabad we don’t tell the Rebbe what to do, it’s the other way around, this the obviously the kavanah (as hinted in the last maamarim and sichos)“

And this is why it’s a shame you don’t have a live rebbe because he’s not around to tell you what to do so your chassidus can’t fix it because he didn’t tell you to

על אלה אנחנו בוכי׳

Menachem: ARSo, I’m very curious. How exactly does this play out?
Like you’re on the subway or in shul or walking down the street, and a Lubavitcher bochur/yungerman/woman/child approaches you, strikes up conversation, and says: “By the way, I assume you know that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach, because the Rambam says….”
Is that what happens?

That is one way it happens, although they don’t quote the Rambam. Another is when I pass a tefillin booth or similar, and the Lubavicher manning it apparently wants to make an impression on the people with him, so he calls out to me – an obviously chassidic non-Lubavitch type – and makes a comment ‘demonstrating’ how he and his cohorts are better than us lesser Yidden.

I have NEVER been the one to start the ‘altercation’.

sechel: everyone always yeared for moshiach the way chabad does, thats why when chabad started saying “we want moshiach now” a litvish gadol said its kefira because it says im yismamea chake lo.

You’re a bit unclear here, but I think I know what you mean. Were you around when the “we want Mashiach now” chant started? I was, and I remember the case you’re talking about, although I don’t remember the litvishe gadol saying it, I just remember the LR talking against the complaint.

As far as I understood then, the Litvak’s complaint was not that people expressed a yearning for Mashiach. Rather, it was the terminology which seemed (to him and to others) that they were demanding Mashiach. Which is indeed the way the LR encouraged it.

CS: They were called tznuim because they were tznius when only Hashem was around…

I don’t think so. That would imply that all the other gedolei olam were only tznius when they were in company, and that is being motzi shem ra on all of them. I believe Shaul and Kimchis were singled out because they went above the letter of the law.

CS, you’re beautiful explanation of the ‘value’ of the shortcomings in Lubavich, doesn’t really hold water.

Just as a parent’s primary job is to instruct – yes, even dictate – to a child the way to behave, and a rabbi’s job is to instruct his community how to behave, a Rebbe’s job is to instruct and dictate to his chassidim. Allowing each one to move along at their own pace is great, as long as it does not affect others, and a lack of tznius – both in dress and in mixing of the genders – affects everyone in the community.

Furthermore, you can’t say that your rebbe didn’t attempt to ‘dictate’ to others, as there are numerous accounts of him meeting other rebbes and telling them that they should instruct their chassidim to learn chassidus, and to publish various works of chassidus – something that was against those rebbes’ mesorah.

@Arso demanding moshiach – like we’re going to hashem and threatening him? Like the dor haflaga that’s the accusation? I don’t see how that even makes sense.
Basically everything chabad does, first is criticized, a few decades later is copied, and a little later others claim they started it. Not like I care or anyone in chabad cares, as long as everyone catches on is fine.

Sechel…why do i so often begin my posts in response to Lubavitchers with the words “where do i begin.” There’s just layers and layers of… I’m not sure what it is. You can call it klipos.

First, even if it were common to see very untzius cleaning women and employees, that is still the “outside.” They are goytas. They’re not in the community. No frum jew would see them and have a minimized view of tznius. They might have shmiras aynayim issues, but that’s a separate issue.

The reality is that yeshivishe homes are, in fact, makpid that the help wears some sort of clothing, without giluy erva and the way they dress in the street. Most frum restaurants are the same. I’ve never seen a frum restaurant with women in states of undress.

So the presumption is wrong on two levels; factually, and in theory.

On to reality – having members of a Jewish community who are “frum” and are considered fully integrated without mitzvah observance weakens the mitzvos that they are not keeping in the eyes of those around them. That’s how lashon hora becomes acceptable. And that’s how boys end up falling away from learning, while girls gravitate away from tznius when their neighbors do not keep hilchos tznius.

This is why the frum community of crown heights has unique problems in this regard. Because they tolerate half baked BTs and gerim who don’t keep halacha, it has a trickle down effect on the mainstream.

One should not feel that they are frum if they abandon mitzvos, even one of them. You can show love to distant, sinful jews – whether they’re tinknos shenishbu or not – without bringing the mess into klal yisroel.

CS: With my daughter, I agreed that the woman who visited was not dressed up to par, for the sake of clarity, but then taught her how to view the positive. This is how we were taught and how we uplift and are uplifted. That’s how lubavitch can hold any kind of person under its umbrella.

Very nice… in theory. But in practice what it often leads to is that the frum kid sees the other non-tznius person as ok overall, because she has been told what a baalas chesed she is, and she tends to downgrade the importance of tznius.

I’m not saying this for the sake of being argumentative. I have seen many Lubavicher and non-Lubavicher kids go off because of this type of thing: “Yes, it’s wrong that he doesn’t wear a yarmuke, but look at how he supports so many tzedoko organizations,” and the like. The kid picks up that he can trade one for the other.

IMHO (I know. You don’t think I’m humble at all. True. But my opnion is.) the way to keep the kid aligned is to say something like, “It’s great that that woman does so much chesed, but unfortunately it’s really terrible that she is not tzniusdik. What a pity. Her chesed would be worth so much more.”