Clarification to mod and DaMoshe

@CS
Then we get called out like we’re pushing something on people. This is the pattern pretty much every time…
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Please do not put your words in to our mouth.

All we’ve said is . other Rebeim , rabanim and public personalities are not called ‘lightweight’ on these pages even though they conceivably could fit the bill.
Why is habad different ?

That was the question / protest by haleivi.

The difference is clear-

You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is MY mashiach.
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is MY nasi. [nasi HADOR]
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is a Prophet like Haggai Zharya and Malahi ,
You are the only group who imposes YOUR leader as navi, HALACHICALLY OBLIGATING , US [on the pain of mita byedei shamayim] to obey his directives.
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is greater than Moshe Our Teacher [who spoke with God peh el peh]

After hearing those outlandish earth shattering claims, and instead of accepting them blindly, we obviously examine the evidence, and the candidate is lacking.

Now the question is [and was] –

WHO put the rebbi of the habad devotees in the spotlight , to be examined ?
The habad people ,with their absurd once in a world history claims, or the rest of the Jews ?

@CS
This would seem to be the natural Torah position (in addition to what’s already posted regarding the Rambam being a Halacha lmaase sefer).
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You keep on repeating the Rambam fallacy again and again.
Cannot understand how you see any proof in the Rambam’s words re the advisability for ‘looking for the most suitable candidate in each generation’.

This is against our Mesorah and the Rambam’s words prove absolutely nothing.

Again- in no other group in klal Yisrael is there any ‘looking for candidates’ going on.
Yours is the only one ….

I just saw the number of CS’s posts, and I’m sure that I won’t be able to do justice in arguing all the relevant points. (If I didn’t believe that CS is an honest, but misguided, woman, I would suspect that she wrote so much just to shut me up. But I don’t think she did.) Nonetheless, לא עלי המלאכה לגמור, so here goes…

a community (us) where the responsibility lies with the individual to care and guidelines are suggested but not enforced (so that every child can have a proper chinuch for example.)

Perhaps you would care to explain how a “child can have a proper chinuch” if he has an unfiltered smartphone. Could you be mechanech a child while he is in a church praying to osoi ho’ish?

Take this as an illustrative example. No I am not suggesting that there are no true Yarei shomayim in the other communities, but rather you cannot judge because of the different cultures, and ultimately, they’re more vulnerable than we are.

Well I’m glad even you admit this is only illustrative. The problem is, that it’s not. I’m sure that all groups have their problems and their secrets, but it is total garbage to say that others are more vulnerable than you are. Why did the LR prohibit TVs? According to you that just makes you more vulnerable.

We all know that Lubavitch was the only one overall (I’ve heard of one non lubavitch teacher who taught in Chabad’s hidden chadarim), who not only didn’t go frei themselves but kept up Yiddishkeit and community life (Mikvah, shochet etc) underground with extreme mesirus nefesh.

Not coming from Russian stock I can’t argue with that, but from what I’ve heard Karlin and Litvishe will indeed argue.

I’m going to have to keep it short and address only some points, and in short, because it is becoming very tiring. CS, I don’t know where you get the ko’ach. (Oh no! I just gave her the opportunity to say, “I get it from the rebbe!”)

Re women’s tznius. I don’t care what is in the woman’s heart (although we have a rule האדם נפעל כפי פעולותיו, and good actions will bring to good intentions). A woman who is ‘chassidish’ in her heart, and does not ‘fake’, but dresses un-tzniusdik, is being machshil many men daily. A woman who is ‘forced’ into being tznius, is saving men from being nichshal, regardless of her behavior at home.

Not sure what you’re on about. This is basic math. The Alter Rebbe was Chabad Rebbe 1, so obviously the Rebbe is 7. What’s invented?

You really don’t get it?! Since when was there a significance to dor shevi’i? Didn’t it only become significant when the LR decided that he was Mashiach, and he then used ‘dor shevi’i’ to refer to himself?

A. Was never a blanket rule (The mekubalim as a whole encouraged women’s education including gemara.)

Which mekubalim?

B. Torah adapts to every situation, Halacha changes accordingly, Rabbanim decided overwhelmingly in favor of women’s Torah education today.

Halacha does NOT change. We have to apply halacha to changes in situation, but what was halacha centuries ago is still halacha nowadays.

And Rabbanim did NOT decide overwhelmingly in favor of women learning gemara.

Btw I asked you for non-Lubavich sources for Rashi learning with his daughters (which, even if true, is not really relevant, because Rashi may have paskened hundreds of years earlier differently to the psak that we follow in Shulchan Aruch), and to Or Hachaim being what he taught his daughters.

Now I know that tradition has it that the Or Hachaim was childless all his life R”l, so I decided to do some research. And lo and behold, the ONLY source for the statement that he had daughters is… something quoted by the Rayatz that was told to him by a chossid!

And while I was doing that research I can across a thread in the Otzar Hachochma forum that discusses the Rayatz’s ‘historical’ stories, and his memoirs. If you’re interested – you will surely regret reading the posts! – search for
האם לאור החיים היו בנות? מכתב מעניין להאדמו”ר הריי”ץ

According to a number of posters on the thread, even in Lubavich many do not take the stories as being historically accurate.

Finally, in this post, my disbelieving the sundial story has nothing to do with 3rd Grade science. It is simply fantasy with the science being fictional. I challenge you to show it to a (non-Lubavich) scientist and have him explain how it works.
(And I said I was going to keep this short! 🙂 I need to take a break.)

CS, I have read through most of what you wrote, and I simply don’t have the emotional ko’ach to go through everything I disagree with, especially when you make claims based on anecdotal evidence of how better Lubavich is than others (because of what-you-see-is-what-you-get and the like). But I can’t always just let things ride, especially when you apparently (and I do believe that’s the case) write things that you have been fed falsely.

In response to my claim that the term Nassi you write:

I don’t think the following sefer is lubavitch (Rashi quoted as well)…
נשיא, ראשי תיבות: ניצוצו של יעקב אבינו, שיעקב “נשמתו כלולה מכל הנשמות שבישראל” (מופיע בספר קהלת יעקב מערכת “רבי”).

After some searching, I found what you are quoting. The sefer was written by Reb Yaakov Zvi Yallish (Yalles?) who was a chossid of the Chozeh of Lublin, and the author of Melo Haro’im on Shas. (I once heard that he wrote Melo Haro’im – perhaps at the behest of the Chozeh, I don’t remember – to show that the rumors that chassidim don’t/can’t learn are untrue.) Here is exactly what he wrote:

רבי הנקרא רבינו הקדוש היה מניצוץ של יעקב אבינו, ואנטונינוס מעשו, וזהו ושני גוים בבטנך אלו אנטונינוס ורבי, ועל כן נקרא רבי יהודה הנשיא ראשי תיבות הוא ניצוץ של יעקב אבינו.

So here is where you have been fooled:
1. The sefer Kehillas Yaakov is talking specifically and only about Rebbi Yehudah Hanossi. There were nesi’im in E”Y both before and after Rebbi Yehudah Hanassi, and he is NOT even referring to any of them.
2. The part of the footnote from Habadpedia that continues about nishmoso kelulah, has nothing to do with the sefer Kehillas Yaakov, and it is in fact from Iggeres Hakodesh (of the Baal Hatanya) in relation to Yaakov Avinu. Not in relation to anybody else since! (In Iggeres Hakodesh he uses that terminology first in relation to Adam Harishon, and he then says it applies as well to Yaakov Avinu, but it stops there.)

In conclusion, we have yet another example of Lubavich – not you CS, as you were fooled as much as anyone else reading that footnote – wilfully misinterpreting, and adding to, a source to make it say what Lubavich wants it to say.

Please don’t ignore this post, and admit that the footnote is at the very least misleading.

CS: Forgot to mention. Of course Chessed starts at home, and The Rebbes involvement in all matters of world Jewry did not detract from his leadership of Chabad, in fact it enhanced it. Baalei teshuva probably make up at least 50% of Chabad today. When the Rebbe unveiled his vision for dor shvii in his inaugural maamar, there were 100 or so Chassidim there, many survivors of the Soviet Union. They had no idea how they would change the world. Today of course, this is fact, and the tremendous expansion of Chabad, both shluchim and Anash, post Gimmel Tammuz. even without the Rebbes physical hand holding, are only testament of what the Rebbe gave us.

You’re missing the point. I know he was out to change the world, but it resulted in Lubavich itself becoming a watered-down chassidus with the push being on the outside as opposed to the outside. The number of children of shluchim and stam Lubavich youth who are off the derech, or close to it, Rachmono litzlon, is absolutely terrible, and don’t tell me you haven’t seen that yourself. Hashem should save you from such tzoros!

You yourself, in passing earlier on, wrote that you don’t know when the change came about that Lubavich as a rule now davens quickly rather than “be’avodah”. That is just one example of the changes that have come about through the focus on looking outside instead of inward. (I assume you’ll answer that chassidus means penimiyus, and looking inward, which is standard Lubavich talk, but for the majority that hasn’t been the case since you started on all these mivtzoim etc.) And there are far worse changes, that I have been harping on, mainly in areas of tznius.

Just to interrupt a moment..

KUDOS TO THE MOD…

Who has to read every single line of posts…

😵‍💫

shkoiach 

@arso i dont know who you call a gadol. reb chaim zimmerman was a gaon olam. maybe cuz he wasnt a politician he didint get so much attention

As I wrote twice, I know virtually nothing about R C Zimmerman, other than that he was a genius with a photographic memory. My question therefore was whether he was considered a gadol beYisroel by the chareidi world in general. Not whether the LR held of him.

people can understand purim 1956 the way they want – out of context,
yankel berel may i know what “type/sect” of jew you are? also everyone else.
in the sefer menachem mashiv nafshi there are plenty of letters (with pictures) of all the gedolim to the rebbe. including rav moshe feinstein, reb shlome zalman aurbach, the brisker rov, the rogetchover, the pnai menachem (who came out against rav shach (together with many chassidishe rebbe’s) when he attacts chabad and the rebbe), rav mordechai gifter, rav yitchok hutner, rav pinchos hirshbrung, the shevet halev, the minchas yitzchok.i.
i agree that there were those that didnt like chabad and the rebbe, those were pretty much all from the misnagdishe yeshivos. (even though rav shach officially claimed he’s only against chabad today, 1) he was close to rav aharon kotler who was a known misnaged, 2) when he came out against chabad (almost) all the chassidishe rebbes didnt join his party, and alot of the big ones signed a machaah against him and distanced from him, like the video on youtube of when he came to Bar Mitzva of R’ Aron Mordchai Belzer Rebbe Son 1989, and tried to say mazal tov to the vitznitzer rebbe (zeide) , he ignored him.
do your reseach, its all availible like i said, unlike all the rumers about chabad, its all just rumers, no documents, pictures etc.

We all claim what we do is the mesorah.
The gemarah says is sanhedrin the the talmidim all said their rebbe is THE moshiach (of all jews)
So clearly this is not a new thing, (maybe by the litvaks is wasn’t done for many generations, so the question is on them not us, and by chassidim it was done for many generations, in ruzin, tzenabel, chabad etc)
And litvaks do the same thing too. Rav chaim was THE gadol hador, or Rav shach etc.

There are many things that litvaks do that i think is not mesorah, like skipping chazaras hashatz in yeshiva. The way they learn “lumdos” before learning kol hatorah kulah biderech kitzara as it says in sh”u. Women going to work, whereas the posuk says kol kvoda bas melech penima, and many other things – davening so fast

@sechel
There are many things that litvaks do that i think is not mesorah …
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there you go again.
I am reminded of a seventh grader protesting to his teacher – but he also did it ….

There no comparison whatsoever between the issues.

@sechel
We all claim what we do is the mesorah.
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there is no mesorah anywhere for ‘looking for candidates for M’ .
Nowhere, not in habad . Not in mainstream Judaism.

sechel, re all the people who wrote letters to the LR:

Go through seforim of all gedolei Yisroel and you will find letters with very respectful titles to all sorts of people, including those of whom the writer did not hold. If everyone wrote exactly what they believed, and kept nothing of what they really believed to themselves, there would not be even two Yidden who would talk to each other. It’s only on websites like this one that anonymous people can voice their true opinions without fear of starting a war.

As to your quote about Rav Shach: he was close to rav aharon kotler who was a known misnaged

That’s not true. He did not like Lubavich, and he was indeed a Litvak, but he was on very good terms with many other chassidic Rebbes, as can be seen from all the work he did in Agudah and Chinuch Atzmai. Just because someone thinks that the Litvishe derech is the best derech, it does not necessarily make him a misnaged, and more than the fact that your thinking Lubavich is the best derech does not mean that you hate other chassidim… at least I hope you don’t.

@CS
I think when the term hater is used, is when The person isn’t actually interested in an answer, and any answer you give will not be satisfactory.
[CS]
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What happens when there is no satisfactory answer ?
Should we accept an unsatisfactory answer, just out of fear not to be labeled ‘hater’ ?
Or do we have the right to insist on proper answers ?

@sechel
by chassidim it was done for many generations, in ruzin, tzenabel habad etc…
[sechel]
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Absolutely not.
There was no ‘lets look for M candidate policy’ nor was there a ‘Lets promote the best candidate’ policy in any of these places.
Nowadays there is no zeher of such a policy in ANY of the many rizhine hasiduyot.
Not a zeher.

Nor is there any zeher of this in Tsjernobil.
Nor in any of the other Tsj. offshoots like rachmestrivk or skver etc

In habad of yore , in Russia were they busy with any of these meshigas ?
I am not talking about what a few hasidim might have said between themselves after they had one vodka too much.
I am talking about a hasidut wide obsession. Which they are mehaneh their offspring with.

New generations who never saw their leader as a human being.
They only hear about him as some sort of God clothed in human form.

Who knows where this going to lead in another few generations ….